The first philosophy is why so many modern AAA games are complete crap. Why not just have FMV of the actors doing the scene and have the audience press X to continue to the next scene?
Difficulty settings are accessibility settings and anyone who disagrees can kiss my ass.
As long as the setting accommodates everyone, including people who want a difficult game
Making a game hard for the sake of making it hard is a cheap way to increase difficulty.
The challenge shouldn’t come from enemies being damage sponges or the AI having superhuman reaction times. It should come from player skill.
Balatro is one of the best examples of this. The game naturally gets easier as the player learns its systems and gains experience through playing.
Destiny 2 also had excellent skill progression. Say what you want about the game as a whole, but the core gunplay and the mechanics of its three classes rewarded players for improving their own abilities.
Even games like Madden and NBA 2K have, to a lesser extent, systems that reward player skill rather than simply inflating difficulty.
Many older games were made extremely difficult because they were relatively short. The increased difficulty extended playtime and made players feel they were getting more value for the price. That’s one of the reasons games like Ninja Gaiden on the NES earned their reputation for being brutally hard.
As for Soulslike games, they’re simply not my cup of tea. I fully acknowledge that they’re well-made games, and if you enjoy them, that’s great. They’re intentionally designed to be challenging. While the original Dark Souls was developed under a tight schedule and has some rough edges, its high level of difficulty was a deliberate design choice rather than the result of bugs or glitches.
Making enemies soak up more damage and deal more damage is lazy difficulty. Giving enemies more tools to use against the player is the better way to handle game difficulty IMO
Sekiro was my first Souls-like and honestly, it’s way too hard. There are moments in the game that lock you out UNTIL you defeat a boss. I even got the mod where it makes you near invincible, and I still struggled to fight bosses. Delivery and world was awesome, gameplay was impossible for people like me.
Then I played Elden Ring where you can literally be over-level. I was getting beat up in one zone, then moved to another area. When I returned, I was better equipped/more powerful/better as a player.
That to me is the perfect balance. Lemme go wander and git gud (by overleveling or finding useful items that make the bosses easier). Every game should allow the player to beat a boss with skill, or plow through them through cheesing/overleveling.
Sekiro bothered me, too, and I played all the Souls games. I got to the boss that wants you to jump and redirect lightning, and I stopped. I understand the philosophy behind making bosses unique, but it’s basically a QTE without the button prompt on the screen, and that’s not what I wanted from From. Also that weird fog that wants you to use consumables. I don’t do consumables.
Difficulty options aren’t there to offer different experiences with a game, they’re there to offer the same experience to players of different skill levels. People who are better at Dark Souls are playing it and its clones at a reduced difficulty compared to people who are worse at it.
But the more you play the better you get…
Like hell. I hit my skill ceiling in these games a long time ago, and I’m not getting any younger.
You know, the darksouls creator’s quote pisses me off. Not because of his opinion, but because the extreme soulslike fanatics will yell, kick, and scream about how difficulty sliders are the devil and how the game itself has its own way of making it easier for you but if you don’t play the game with their specific build, your play through doesn’t count.
EDIT: had an extra “their” for some reason
Well first off, fuck them. That’s just what happens when people lose at PvP.
His quote is absolutely right, and especially with Dark Souls 1. There’s so many ways to approach the game that isn’t the meme pvp build everyone references out the gate.
It’s absolutely not right. I am not good at soulslikes, so the games are harder for me. If you have fun with it, that’s because the game is easier for you
Well, “soulslike” is a pretty garbage category, honestly. I have played a lot of games that call themselvea soulslikes, and I pretty much only trust Miyazaki with that genre.
Miyazaki’s quote is wrong for what the gaming industry labels ‘soulslikes’, but not necessarily the games he has designed and created. Because a lot of soulslikes don’t do what Miyazaki tries to do.
And I get what you mean about the game being easier as relative. But there’s also the fact that people do challenge runs in all kinds of games. It’s that drive to be challenged and do something harder, so it is not easier, is at the root of what draws people.
No, it’s still wrong for the games that he has designed and created. Let me attempt an analogy.
If you give Sean Evans or Chris Schonberger a spoonful of sriracha, it will not be spicy to them. The same spoonful of sriracha would be overwhelmingly spicy if you gave it to someone who doesn’t use hot sauce. Same capsaicin content, wildly different experiences.
You need to add difficulty options if you want everyone to have a similar experience. Otherwise, you’re just making the game harder for some people for no reason.
Some people enjoy a more challenging experience. Give them options to make it a more challenging experience. Nobody is asking anyone to take options away from players who like the games to be excessively difficult.
So with the Hot Ones analogy. The show is about interviewing guest tackling the challenge of hot sauces.
People tap out, and that’s a part of the show. There’s challenges within the show as well: (no milk, etc.)
If guests just ate the first wing 10 times, or it was just Sean Evans eating the wings and asking questions it’d just be a different show. (And there are shows where the guests just eat nornsl chicken wings, which is fine. They just sren’t Hot Ones.)
If Sean Evans weren’t eating the wings, however, the premise of the show is still there. Him joining in just helps the guest keep trying.
You can quit, you can not even play at all. If you’re not having fun you shouldn’t feel forced either way. Tap out, drink the milk, eat the ice cream.
At a certain point there’s going to be a “Challenge Mode: The Game” that is not conducive to an Easy Mode.
Ninja gaiden black was such a great game.
All art should have difficulty sliders. I want to listen to avant-garde jazz but I think it should be in 4/4 time signature and they should play the most melodic notes. And I think art house movies should have a version where the script is rewritten so the characters explain the allegories and symbolism of the movie while I’m watching. And I think opera should have someone reading what is being sung because I find it hard to follow along with the singing
I mean we literally do have accessibility settings for most art lmao what do you think subtitles and sign language interpreters are
Sure and we have subtitles in Fromsoft games so it’s all good right?
Yeah maybe we should have even more accessibility settings too. Things that don’t fundamentally change the game like changing the time signature on a piece of music changes that piece of music. Like, it wouldn’t fundamentally change Bloodborne if there was an option to make Rom the Vacuous Spider take fewer hits to kill.
It wouldn’t even have to get in the way of players who enjoy spending 5 hours slashing at a blob of flesh. That’s the beauty of options! They’re optional!
If From thought they could add difficulty settings without diminishing the vision of their game don’t you think they would? I’m not against difficulty sliders if a dev wants them. I am against difficulty sliders if devs cant or won’t do them. My point is artists should be making THEIR art and not art that caters to the most amount of people.
Everyone who is opposed to difficulty sliders should be forced to spend 200 hours on each game using a controller that simulates dyspraxia by randomly adjusting every movement of the sticks by a random degree and lagging every button press by a few microseconds before they’re allowed to play it normally.
Add an additional 400 hours if they also say smug shit like this when pretending their ableism and elitism are just devotion to artistic integrity.
The devs who make games without difficulty sliders should never get their undoctored controllers back.
If someone wants to gate their game to people who can handle the level of difficulty, that’s their choice. There are plenty of developers who are willing to be accommodating, to get hung up on games that don’t
Personally I oppose difficulty sliders because I think they are overly broad and stupid, looking at you Bethesda and your lowsy ass health bar padding. Give me more zomboid and owlcat style difficulty setting where I can customize them in all minutiae.
But no seriously fuck difficulty sliders cause 9/10 they do overly broad gameplay things that some of which I may not want. This is coming from a guy who beat Boltgun on its hardest difficulty with the clown vomit filter so it’s not like I can’t enjoy ulta hard difficulty but what some consider ultra hard I may consider annoying as fuck see yet again Bethesda health bar padding. I do like NV 4s hardcore/survival mode though.
I think Mortal Kombat does it best. When you die to a boss, that boss becomes ever so slightly less difficult. Unnoticeably so at first, but as you die more and more and more, they get slower and slower and slower
We should abolish all art since there will always be someone with a disability who isn’t able to enjoy it.
Do you think the entire artistic value of soulsikes is in their difficulty? That it would ruin them if players with worse reaction time were given the ability to progress at the same rate as players with exceptional reaction time? That Dark Souls would be essentially the same if instead of Gwyn, Lord of Cinder, there was just a floating hitbox with 4,185 health? What a fucking insult to Miyazaki’s writing
Do you think the entire artistic value of soulsikes is in their difficulty?
I mean the entire theme of souls games is overcoming rediculous challenges in the face of what seems like an impossible task. These aren’t games with amazingly written dialogues, or intricate in depth stories. The game you play is the story of your character dieing repeatedly until they overcome a great challenge to meet their goals. It would fundamentally change the game if you could just slide a bar to make it easier.
Let me ask you this, why do you think every game should cater to you? Isn’t it OK for some art to not be for everyone? Isn’t that what we tells chuds when they whine and moan about main characters being women or poc? Why can’t some art be about the overcoming a challenge?
I really don’t know where I land on this. I have severe concentration and coordination issues that flair up post covid, this means that I frequently can’t play Fromsoft games. Admittedly I’m lucky enough that this is not constant, but I think I’m still glad their games exist in the way they do. They are just one developer and it’s a niche genre.
I have wicked adhd and there are plenty of authors I can’t enjoy because their prose is too dense. I don’t demand they write to my level, I choose books that I can enjoy reading. Video games seems to be the only art form where people feel entitled to enjoyment rather accepting there will be things that your just not capable of enjoying. If Fromsoft thought they could make their vision with difficulty sliders I’m sure they would. But if they can’t do that then they should never feel obligated to reduce their vision to something lesser to make it more palatable to wider audience
I know this is just a joke, but art should have a difficulty slider when possible if it will require active participation by the audience. Otherwise, it is just excluding people and essentially gatekeeping. Even art house movies and have subtitles, and music is often translated to text or sign.
Disagree. There are plenty of games out there that try to cater to the widest base possible, plenty of games with a bunch of difficulty sliders and adjustments. From should be able to make their art without having to cater to every single person.
Even art house movies and have subtitles, and music is often translated to text or sign.
That was not my argument. My argument was art movies should explicitly spell out the meanings and symbolism in their movie via dialogues so I don’t have to do it myself. Avant-garde jazz musicians should make albums in popular time signatures and be more melodious. Otherwise people are excluded from enjoying those art forms
Celeste did it perfectly imho with their Assist Mode. Just add those difficulty options in for accessibility, with a statement that it is not how the developers intend for it to be played, but still to use it freely if need be.
“Celeste is intended to be a challenging and rewarding experience. If the default game proves inaccessible to you, we hope that you can still find that experience with Assist Mode.”
It is 2026. Gamers should be able to enjoy any game they want at any difficulty they want without judgement, as long as it does not affect anyone else.
Exactly. I love Souls games but I think having an option somewhere for people that need it wouldn’t ruin the intended experience. Especially if there’s a disclaimer before you choose it.
I’m not mad they don’t have it or anything. But like, shouldn’t there be a way to play if you literally can’t otherwise?
Itagaki was a pretty big bastard if I remember right, or was that someone else I’m thinking of.
A lot of people in this thread don’t seem to have gotten the subtle meme post in this image. Itagaki was the dude who made the Modern Ninja Gaiden titles and the Dead or Alive franchise. The dude was always a massive troll to both the media and players but was very dedicated to the vision he had for the games he wanted to make. He also had a very close friendship/rivalry with Katsuhiro Harada, the main dev for the Tekken franchise starting at Tekken 3 and recently cutting ties with Namco to found a new company that is, unfortunately, owned by SNK. Itagaki sadly passed away last year and a lot of old school devs mourned for his loss, but probably none harder than Harada given just how long they had been actual irl friends.
Also Hideo Kojima: Can I add a setting to have lots of feet. Do you all like feet? more feet!
Match the type of a game, sheesh.
Bethesda like open world? Gimmie difficulty levels - nothing will change with them except that people will be able to tailor the experience more.
Narrative and/or choice heavy game? Leave difficulty choice off to let the original vision of the author speak for itself - havimg parts too easy or hard due to watered down or pumped up difficulty can ruin the story.
Arcade/Dark Souls games? I…don’t really see reasons for difficulty settings here except for harder than baselines ones? Like new game +. In these games, learning patterns and gettimg good is the game, there is no way around it.
All in all - not every game is for everyone, we have genres for a reason. Having difficulty tailored for arcades in open world exploration game makes no sense just as much as having watered down difficulty levels in narrative heavy games.
Some have limited time and want to enjoy a good game without being one-shot or learning patterns for 5 hours to beat a single boss.
This is really such an weird argument. Like arguing that you want to be able to drive a nail with any tool you find, so no matter if these are scissors, a spoon or an actual hammer, all need to be usable as a hammer.
We have genres for a reason. If you do not like soulslikes, pick another game. If you have no time to play arcade style games, pick another genre. There are thousands of games available, and genre overlap is huge - don’t play games that aren’t meant to align with your requirements and then complain they don’t.
Like, this is borderline egoistical of you.
I think it’s a valid argument. For example, if someone wants to read Shakespeare but they aren’t a strong reader, you could provide a simpler version, while acknowledging it isn’t as originally intended. It allows for accessibility for a larger audience while not changing the experience for others. You wouldn’t tell someone to read a different story genre instead. This isn’t tools, where we have to bend the laws of physics, it’s changing some numbers in a database, and something already done for higher level difficulty settings, so just allow a version that is easier. No one is forcing anyone to play it that way.
Lol yes, I dropped High On Life at the first boss because after trying to pass it ten times, I just couldn’t be bothered.
That’s just not a game to me. It’s just packaged frustration, and I’d rather do something else. So that got uninstalled rather fast.You’re way overblowing the difficulty of the Souls games.
I’ve beaten most of them, and my reactions are shit. 90% of the difficulty is from not knowing how it differs from other games.
Some
I never said all, have I?
Sounds like you’ll need to play a different game then.
Sounds like you need to learn to respect the boundaries of others.
What? I am not interacting with your boundaries at all. I’m not forcing you to play anything that doesn’t suit you. You are complaining that you want to play a game that doesn’t suit you. Maybe you’ll just have to get over the fact that it doesn’t suit you and play something else?
Sounds like you’ll need to play a different game then.
Sounds like you are telling me what my taste is supposed to be
Maybe you’ll just have to get over the fact that it doesn’t suit you and play something else?
I am aware of it and have already decided it not being my cup of tea.
I am talking about those that like a moderate challenge but do not enjoy being stuck for 10hours at a stage without any meaningful progress to achieve.You: “I don’t like the characteristic elements of Souls games.”
Them: “You may want to play a different game then.”
You: “Stop telling me my taste!”
I am talking about those that like a moderate challenge but do not enjoy being stuck for 10hours at a stage without any meaningful progress to achieve.
Maybe they should pick a game that provides a moderate challenge and not one that provides “being stuck for 10h at a stage without any meaningful progress”?
Can’t be real.
So…. Play a different game? Not everything is for you? Does this actually need to be said?
learning patterns and gettimg good is the game
Otherwise it’s fruit ninja lmao which is a fun game you should get if you want an easy sword slashing experience
I had to double check that Tomonobu wasn’t responsible for steel battalion. (A game that deleted your save if you didn’t press the eject button in time)
I mean, lots of games have “iron man” modes wherein you cannot save scum.
I’m not paying for a game that doesn’t allow changing difficulty if I want/need. I work two jobs and have to do most home cleaning and maintenance. I used to game competitively back in the early 2000s, but I don’t have time for that shit nor gatekeeping.
Yeah I wasted money on 2 soulslikes before I realized it. Now I avoid them like the plague.
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Good news: Dwarf fortress is free.
Strike the earth!
Is it still available for free? I kinda assumed once it went up on steam it wouldn’t be.
The steam version is the nice graphical one. The original is still free.
Oh that’s cool I didn’t know there was a difference between them
The original is capable of pretty nice graphics too.
Doesn’t the Steam version just give you different graphics?
It also adds a lot of quality of life stuff you would have to mod the original to get access to, though as I understand it, the Lazy Newb Pack mods include most of those QoL changes. Though, them being integrated into the game itself will almost always be smoother than requiring the installation of a mod.
let’s be real here, the steam version is mostly a tax on people who find technology scary and can’t install a few things on their own
… or mostly a cool way to support two guys who have poured their LIFE into what has become one of the most notorious computer games of all time. Exhibited by museums, beloved by million, and distributed for free. Best 30 bucks I’ve spend in a while. If anyone deserves that money, it’s the Adams brothers.
But sure think of it as a mean spirited idiot-tax if you want
It’s also a way to support two stellar devs
I suppose you could think of it that way, though buying it on Steam, even if you’re not going to play that version, does help support the continued development of the game overall. Their Patreon donation stream was apparently waning before the Steam version released, plus there was the family health scare Tarn revealed at the time of the announcement too. I’d prefer the entire project not get put on a long hiatus because the devs got unexpectedly bankrupted by the absurd healthcare costs prevalent here in the US. And the fact that they didn’t take down the free version after the Steam release on its own shows that they didn’t make that version for the sake of greed.
Both are perfectly acceptable philosophies, but many Souls players need to learn that losing at a game for 150 hours is not what other people find fun.
Why? Do Souls players not accept others not liking the games? Thats not my experience but maybe many are like that?
Also, usually Souls players dont lose for 150 hours straight. Most of the time its winning, but sometimes youre set back a bit and sometimes youre stuck. Some people like earning their wins. Some dont deal well with the difficulty and get frustrated, I get thats not fun for them. To each their own.
Yeah, the position of most FromSoft players in my experience is: “You don’t have to like the games, but you can’t just demand that they change for you.”
Some people need to understand that not all games are for all people. I don’t like RTS games, and so I don’t play them! What I don’t do is demand that they all add a turn-based option that would destroy game balance just because that’s what I prefer to play.
Like, what an insanely entitled thing to demand. And for some reason it’s only Soulslikes that have to deal with this craziness. There are thousands of other games out there for you to play, people.
Most of us get that, but non souls player must also understand that dark souls on easy mode is just a bad game. There are no big cinematics, the story is scarce, there are only a few npcs. Those are games that puts you on your toes, you must be wary at all times, and learn to master the game bit by bit. It’s not for everyone, or everytime (I think everyone can play souls game but they need to be in the right mindset) but they are my favorite games. But yeah gatekeepers suck
You’re making the game on easy sound pretty good to me.
Gatekeepers make things good by keeping those who aren’t serious out.
games
mumble about keeping non-serious people out
(You can just ignore non-serious people as they don’t affect you btw)
The difficulty slider is intrinsic to the system and the world. The whole point is that you have to make it easier by engaging with it on its own terms, rather than by forcing a change upon the world to make it suit you. This is never made explicit; the creator just wants you to either dig deep or bounce off it because struggle is the whole point or something, which is why we have to talk about it forever. Blah
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You can just play a different game. It’s a toy. This shit doesn’t matter.
Diagetic difficulty is specifically not forcing play the way the creator wants. Its using lack of balance and making it part of the experience.
The difficulty slider in Souls games is how many levels you’ve invested into health
You often can’t do that until you’ve made a little bit of progress. The real difficulty curve early on is knowing that picking the heavy armour class will make things much harder for yourself, that the real progression is knowledge of enemy attacks and opening shortcuts, and that losing your currency when you don’t have enough points to reach the next level isn’t really a big deal.
And the janky camera controls. Those, sadly, can’t be mitigated much.
That and some very strange ideas about where the jump button should be.
Idk if soul players need to learn anything. Not your style of game thats fine, but all fights in souls games are fair in the sense that anyone can eventually beat it with practice, or overleveling, or innate skill (those who have, ahem, gotten good), and any combination of the three.
Have known a lot of people who played dark souls at a time in their life where they needed the lesson of getting up after getting knocked down.
I have that shit in real life. (Being taken down and having to get back up)
I work. I have to take care of the house/family. I had a leukemia…and I DID fucking rise up again from the dead…literally. With 3 prosthesis after, but hey, its just means im in a different game now (cyberpunk)
But we are talking about fucking games.
I am not a teenager with the time. Or patience. Those are both used on real life…you know…the bigger game. The real game.
I’m Not saying you can’t have the difficulty in your…playthings.
I am saying that there are people who want to play the games you like, they are great fucking games, but we just don’t have the time and energy to waste a few hours in the same fucking level/battle.
And that’s the conversation: Having the possibility to change difficulty. That exists. It’s not impossible.
You do you. No one is robing you of your experience.
Its just a shame…the gatekeeping.
Edit: I’m loving the responses missing the point.
Hey sorry you had cancer; glad you survived.
I mean that, but you are bringing some weird antagonist monologue energy to this thread.
Difficult sliders are simply bad for certain games, soulsborne games are one of them.
You are also robbing your own experience BTW. Give yourself a fair shot at beating these games without taking the easy route.
And lots of people want to go to hawaii but it’s a long flight and people with jobs might not have the time to go. Welcome to real life!
Play something else. (I don’t play games at all anymore but the last thing people want is a square coming into the circles room to complain there’s too many rounded edges.)
Gamers are so entitled they will argue with other gamers on matters of taste. “That game is not to my specifications! Instead of finding one that is I’ll complain until the game is changed! People that like it the old way need to know i have a job!”
Why does everyone think every game has to be made for the lowest common denominator? If you don’t like a game, don’t play it. Besides, souls games can actually be quite forgiving, the difficulty adjustments just isnt in sliders. Especially in elden ring, you can beat every fight in a pretty brainless (i mean like not needing to dodge almost at all) way if you take the time to set up for it.
I tried Dark Souls and I tried Demon Souls.
It’s not my thing, but I’m glad they are a lot of other people’s cup of tea
