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AA taught me to pray to myself, because I am the only god (creative force) who is along for the journey in my headspace. It’s actually incredibly effective. Determination setting. We use the word “god” a lot and get so caught up in what it must mean according to large groups, and we lose focus on what it means on an individual scale, which is where recovery happens.
The tip is to find a group full of angry atheists because then you get to use the whole hour unpacking religious trauma and bashing the church while you reclaim these words for yourself - “god,” that’s your word.
I just did a short intensive outpatient trauma program where one woman just kept bringing up her faith in a way like “I listen to the top 40 christian hymns to regulate, you should too!” and I was losing my fucking mind. I don’t mind hearing about other people’s faith, but I do when its pushed on me as if I didn’t spend 25+ years screaming at their god begging for help with no answers. I am working toward the mindset you’ve described here, though. I’m saving your comment and pinning it in my journal — thank you
Yeah, but paganism, animism, and Pastafarianism are all valid end points, too.
Worship the sun, it gives us life. What have YOU done for 8 billion people today?
Paise bob “Dobbs”
I quit drinking and thankfully never had to go to a meeting, but I’ve always heard that the only way through AA is with God.
I’ve been an atheist my entire life, so I don’t think that would have worked for me lol hopefully we’ll never know.
I did need AA to get sober. Also as an atheist, it took me quite a few meetings to find a group that aligned with that. I honestly stayed away from getting help for a long time due to my concerns with the faith aspect.
My GOD was a Group Of Drunks in a meeting that I believed in and we helped each other stay sober.
Haven’t been to a meeting in five years. However I don’t think I would have gotten sober eight years ago without the community I found in AA.
Still very much an atheist. Probably more so now than before.
That’s awesome!! I’m proud and happy for you!
It works for some, and good for them. For me, my health choices have nothing to do with faith, and there’s no need to manufacture a big performance around sobriety, and make it my whole personality. I’d rather have and keep the quiet comfort of taking care of myself, to myself.
AA is strictly religion wrapped up with pseudo-science. I think they have worse results than not attending any program.
That’s because you’re the only one who can stop you from drinking. Saying you’re powerless is stupid
It’s fun watching people who understand the ACAB concept turn around and go to church, like have you even begun applying the same logic there?
The state should be barred from imposing religious indoctrination/pseudo-science (12 steps, etc) as a “cure” for addiction.
I strongly disagree. As someone who broadly detests religion, I know that the mere act of praying can act as self-confrontation that is otherwise inaccessible in many cases.
The state still shouldn’t be able to force it as a punishment.
I somehow missed the first part of your comment. I agree, a secular alternative should be available.
There are secular alternatives. SMART Recovery is secular and can be used in place of AA if a substance abuse program is court ordered AFAIK. I attended a few meetings on my own and had a few people that were court ordered show up there
I think it’s important. Most of the people in AA aren’t religious, but the “program” wouldn’t survive if it lacked structure. People use the religious terminology, but most of them don’t believe it.
It’s not an effective program and shouldn’t survive. Telling people they’re powerless and only God can save them is the opposite of what should be said.
There are far more effective methods out there
Having community support to hold each other accountable is a massive barrier for many people struggling with addiction. The term codependency was coined in addiction recovery research — not in the way its often colloquially used, though. People dependent on substances very likely have someone that is codependent around them enabling that addiction. Some programs like SMART Recovery specifically host separate meetings for family and friends of people seeking treatment to break down those dynamics.
For some, AA is the only option out there, but I do suggest people looking for secular options to check out SMART Recovery. They have workbooks and a mobile app that include evidence based skills, but if someone’s in need of an in-person community and doesn’t have any alternatives around them, I think it’s reasonable to support them in going to AA, if only to check it out and see what the particular groups are like. Another commenter in this thread (BanMe) shared their experience in finding a group that was filled with atheists, so, they’re not all submitting to Jesus
Also want to throw out there for anyone curious about specific skills, DBT also has quite a few centered around distress tolerance, mindfulness and emotional regulation. They’re helpful in quite a few areas outside of addiction, but DBT is considered like gold standard treatment for people with chronic suicidality. It’s not effective for everyone, though. There’s no one model that will work for everyone. Treatment for mental health, substance abuse included, is highly individualized and has many factors in how each model might be effective or not.
It works for some people, so its useful. You can call it pseudo science if you want, nobody cares if its science. They just want something that works.
“it works for some people”
So does lobotomy
So does electroshock therapy
So does sleep deprivation
So does solitary confinement
So does brain washing
… and so on. They all “work for some people”. They are all “useful”.
Not a good barometer for success. Your logic is horrifying.
None of the aforementioned should be a tool of the state (including AA)
Doing nothing doesn’t do a damn thing. It should be one tool in a toolbox. AA is not like the other things on there, just like CBT isn’t like those things, just like medication isn’t like those things. GP1s just landed in the medication toolbox. Addiction is incredibly complex and includes a spiritual component. If you don’t like how the program does it, go start your own alcohol treatment protocol, hell a global network of meetings and instant support, and see how far you get. I’m super eager to see it.
I’ve already mentioned this in another comment, but SMART Recovery is a secular alternative that does host virtual sessions if anyone’s looking and can’t find something local. They’re pretty well established in multiple countries now. They’ve also got the website and mobile app with evidence based skills. DBT also has skills targeting addiction. The main reason I think AA can be effective (though its less than a coin flip chance iirc) is due to the community aspect.
My logic is just fine. Im wondering how yours are, if you think science is the only way to understand if something is useful to a human being.
The entire field of spirituality and religion is very important for a lot of people because it gives them meaning. Science would say thats just useless. I disagree. It has a lot of meaning for a lot of people.
I’m confused what you’re saying science would say is useless. Having meaning? Cuz that’s well supported in psychology. There are many ways to develop meaning in our lives. Science is just a method that helps us figure out what is effective. Spirituality can be effective in helping to form meaning, sure, but people need alternatives if or when it fails.
Science would say spirituality is useless, even ridiculous, because it cant find evidence for a soul.
Science can probably measure how our brains respond to spirituality though, and say that its useful because our brains respond to it in a positive way.
Im pretty sure op said that. He said the religious aspects of AA help some ppl and they’re right. The issue is ppl act like their arent a-religious alternatives which their clearly are
Oh my God, I super agree, probably in a way not a lot of readers here will expect.
Joining narcotics anonymous or alcoholics anonymous comes with an immediate expectation that you will “accept a higher power”. It is step one of “the program”. I find that profane as an atheist. And it was a huge problem when I tried to join the program.
I won’t get into it further, because it would be long enough for its own post, but the religious dogma in the 12 step programs, including alcoholics anonymous, is an incredible and introductory load of the bullshit that only expands further into more egregious loads of bullshit as you progress through the 12 steps. Some of it helps. Some of it makes everything much worse.
The 12 step recovery programs were invented by amateurs in 1936. If you’re looking to recover from addiction, there have been invented far more effective programs for recovery in the last 100 years by professionals who actually know what they’re doing.
If you want to treat your addiction to alcohol or other addictive substances, do your research. 12 step programs have, at best, a 6% success rate. They are your worst option. You can do better. You deserve better.
12 step programs are only there to shame you and guarantee failure. You will get nothing else there other than a community of shame and failure. And garbage religious dogma shoved down your throat.
Edit: I will say, however, that the vast majority of the people in those programs are looking not only to help themselves, but honestly caring enough to try to help others. So I am not judging them, just judging the program itself and how it has aged out of its own usefulness.
SMART Recovery is a science-based alternative that uses Cognitive Behavior Therapy techniques. I don’t know what their success rate is, but people I know have been helped by their programs.
Yoo I’ve been all up in this thread recommending them. Last I checked they use REBT, which is a kind of precursor to CBT. I didn’t find it the most effective, but I joined a DBT skills group and am making my way through a year long program for that and have found it very helpful. I’m trying to address a lot more than substance abuse, though. Its considered more gold standard treatment for chronic suicidality or people struggling with borderline personality.
I appreciate this post!
I’ve never been to a meeting, but I’ve always heard the only way through AA is with God. And as a lifelong atheist, I don’t think that would work for me. I’d just be lying to get them to shut up lol (which would not be doing myself the real service I would need at that point).
I’m surprised there isn’t a more secular AA program. I can see the appeal of AA meetings without the 12 steps piece.
What’s the point of accepting a higher power? Is it so that we can just put the blame on them? Or accept our place in this grand equation? I think we can already do the latter without a god.
I’d love to read more if you do end up making a separate post!
I’m in the camp that I’ll bite a little, they just have to let me know who the “higher power” is. Require me to make up a floaty ghost that is responsible for everything and all the good stuff is a miracle, but all the bad stuff is from a weaker being that the higher power just ignores… Well that seems a bit like a cop-out.
If that really is who they want me to follow, will they keep PETA off my back, I’ve had a few rough crops and I think I remember a passage that will help… I just gotta find some find some “clean animals”.
I’m in the camp that I’ll bite a little, they just have to let me know who the “higher power” is. Require me to make up a floaty ghost that is responsible for everything and all the good stuff is a miracle, but all the bad stuff is from a weaker being that the higher power just ignores… Well that seems a bit like a cop-out.
If that really is who they want me to follow, will they keep PETA off my back, I’ve had a few rough crops and I think I remember a passage that will help… I just gotta find some find some “clean animals”.
I suggest you look into programs like SMART Recovery that are science based.
yeah fuck that i am my own higher power
Me too, but I’m also my own worst enemy :)
hell yeah sibling
There is a ton of tacit religious dogma in a lot of American society/behavior in particular. It really shines out when you don’t come from a Christian upbringing.
It really shines when you are brought up christian, now atheist, how fucking entwined the state and Church are
I’ve been struck how even a lot of atheist circles operate under a de facto Christian framework.
Wow. Im an atheist. Im in an aa mtg room waiting for the mtg to start. No one gives me shit.
Step 2 is just accepting help. Admitting your not the one that has the all the answers. Every modern treatment ive heard of in 20 yrs either cribs aa, or eventually recommends it. Its not perfect, but I know dozens of people that are only alive because of it.
One of the steps is believing in a higher power. I was kicked out of rehab for denying this sentiment. They try to say that “OH, it could be anything!” and then continuously push Bible verses on you. The AA handbook is mostly Bible verses and evangelical propaganda.
The core ideas can work for some people. If those meetings help, despite your beliefs, then keep going. The one thing that has helped me is actually wanting to stop. That takes a lot, even if you don’t recognize it.
They will blab on and on in AA, and it is 100% based in biblical texts (though there is an attempt to include everyone). And, sadly, one of the main things they will do in rehab is force you to sit in “meetings” where they have a guest speaker join. Guess what that speaker does - they try to convince you to join a very expensive rehoming, AA, or NA living facility.
My point is, the end goal is to want, not need, to stop. This takes a lot. After 20 years of drinking I had to want to stop to actually do it. For the same amount of time for smoking, the best I could do was switch to modern nicotine pouches. It worked. I haven’t smoked in about 7 months, but since I don’t want to give up nicotine yet, I can’t. I’m trying to want to.
This is a long comment now, but my point is that the entire goal of the 12 steps sans religion is to convince yourself that you don’t want that anymore.
There are no official AA or NA living facilities. Its against the 12 traditions. If someone characterized it that way to you then they were mistaken, or some group that isnt AA or NA is trying to take advantage of their reputation.
I’ve lived in recovery houses. A home that is maintained as a place for recovering people to live. Sort of like a halfway house, but not for people being released from jail. It was the only rent I could afford, being homeless (100 a week 20 yrs ago, where rent on a studio was double that). They required attendance in some recovery program, but not necessarily 12 step. It was a come up for me. If you own a home, or are stable in your housing in some otherway, its not really an advantage.
Unless you know the people there. I moved into 2 houses where I had already been friends with the people living there, through NA mtg attendance. So it was just like having roommates. Thats often not the case though.
I see people poo poo 12 step recovery and recovery houses all the time, and Ill admit, we’re talking about unstable people doing their best. I had already developed a good street sense by the time I hit the rooms, so if thats not the case for you, it can be off putting to find out what its like at the bottom for a lot of people.
The religious stuff, ill just say, you were talking to pushy individuals. They are out there. I actually have people tell me that theyre glad im an atheist, so a new person can see they dont have to listen to the Bible thumper in the mtg. I shoot em down every time. Im too smart for their scripts lol.
I just dont want someone to read this thread and avoid their local group without ever trying it. Its free and lasts an hour. If you think the people are assholes, try a different 1 maybe. After a couple hours investment, you’ll know if you can hang with the folks there or not.
I was required to sit in on basically ads for over priced living spaces in rehab, in multiple locations. It is especially bad in the free state sponsored rehabs here. Regarding the religious stuff, Christianity is literally all over the AA Big Book. AA is religious. Court cases repeatedly find that Alcoholics Anonymous is religious in nature. As a result, no agent of government may legally require anyone to attend AA. AA, and by inheritance, NA is entirely religious in nature. If you are not religious, most of it will fall flat.
If it winds up working for you, that’s great, seriously. People should at least try it, especially since the sense of community can really be what’s needed to help you.
It should also be said that experiences will vary by region and program wildly. I just can’t say that I personally ever gained anything positive from it other than encouragement (which has really helped).
Thats a shame about the rehab.
I agree AA, and NA should not be govt mandated. Id just say its spiritual instead of religious. I know thats a worn thin sentence, but I think it highlights the above mentioned difficulty of developing the desire to stay stopped. If you’ve spent years in the street, a whole different approach to life is required, but completely foreign. You gotta trust someone else’s suggestions on a sort of blind faith at first until you see results. Unfortunately, like you say, its the Bible stuff the programs were originally rooted in that is most common. I decided to be the change I wanted to see in my area, and its well received every time.
When I stay sober for years without saying the lord’s prayer or even appealing to sky daddy, and have grounded real experience as both an active addict and a recovering addict, you cant argue. I have always had a desire to help others and I was taught “each one teach one.” My sponsor said, if youre the first athiest here, teach the second, and save a life. I stay partly because I want an atheist to be able to find me. I dont even have to be at the meeting they show up to because people know about me now, and can just be like “yeah I know a guy thats an atheist, dont sweat it.”
Great chat. Hope you’re in a great place today.
Different approaches work for different people, and every room and every meeting is different. I’ve personally found Smart Recovery to be more helpful.
I’ve never found them anywhere I’ve lived. After a quick google, it seems the main difference is the powerlessness in 1 and the higher power in 2. To me that’s just recognizing i cant stop once I start, and I cant stay stopped without help. Thats it thats all. Its not something I was taught, I’ve proven it to myself. Some people see a devil/God thing there because the culture in America in the 1930s was nominally Christian, and more observant than today.
The main benefit is I can find a meeting in almost any town, any day of the week. I feel at home in a meeting where I know everyone knows what its like to deal with addiction. I can sit down and feel ok, instead of on gaurd.
I am interested to know how low bottom cases fare in smart recovery. I mean like homeless junkies that boost for a living. 12 step recovery seems to have started from the bottom, and smart recovery from the higher bottom cases.
SMART Recovery does have online meetings, but that isn’t the same as being in a room where the normies aren’t allowed in. Being around people who can relate to the struggles that come with addiction is so powerful.
In my experience, AA explores ways to avoid drinking by focusing on how harmful substance abuse is. SMART stands for Self Management And Recovery Training. It focuses on looking inward and trying to find the reasons we choose our addictive behavior. Then fixing those problems with Cognitive Behavior Therapy inspired tools.
We are basically cavepeople in a world where technology outpaced our instincts and nervous systems. We weren’t designed for all the blinking lights and huge amounts of information. If we could all slow down, practice some self compassion and gratitude, eat some berries and take a nap… the world would be a better place.
Work it. You’re worth it.
They took some anecdotal evidence from people that weren’t addicted to justify the “do it for a higher power.” People with issues (of almost any kind) more often feel shame bc they are letting the “higher power” down. It leads to disaster a lot. I love your insight.
Daniella Young (Knitting Cult Lady) is a cult scholar talks extensively about this as well as other cults. I highly recommend her for more info on this and how terrible these groups are for anyone who is interested.
I’ve followed her for a little bit now. I guess yt could tell I seen a cup of perc coffee or two and showed me her videos about AA. Ill say, she’s not wrong about poor behavior of repected members. She’s missing a lot of context though.
She wants a top down enforcement of policy to root out bad behavior. Completely reasonable in a govt, business, or religion that has leadership that is stable for the most part for years at a time. This is not the case for AA. Most groups that meet on a given day are simply the people in driving range that want to chat and work on themselves a bit in some quick group talk therapy. The membership is informal so as not to put of the reticent. That might sound sus, but these are people that constantly refuse help, easily accessible help sometimes. People change groups, join multiple, join none but attend many, and a manner of things.
Its like asking America as a whole to do better with allowing pdf files to victimize children. Yes, but its not like anyone’s encouraging it… and if anyone is a creep we watch out for it and warn people when necessary. Just like any group of friends in a neighborhood. Which is what we are, imo.
While I largely agree, most (not all, ofc) AA chapters will clarify that a “higher power” doesn’t have to be god. Could be fate, causality, or just the universe in and of itself - the purpose of the step is surrendering and accepting that you alone cannot resolve your addiction.
That being said, religion is pushed on you more often than not and many chapters will end with “the Lord’s Prayer” which always bothered me, along with other issues.
It’s not a perfect system, but it does work for many people and if it has helped you then all power to you (or rather your higher power, I guess)
My main gripe is that it often focuses on the symptoms rather than the root problem. Addiction is often the result of a deeper underlying condition that leads one to seek escape using substances, which then leads to physical and/or psychological dependency- be that depression, trauma, psychological conditions, etc… Treating the addiction alone can break the dependency but leaves alone the same conditions that led to substance abuse in the first place, which I believe is why you will so often see people repeatedly cycling in and out of the program.
AA chapters will clarify that a “higher power” doesn’t have to be god. Could be fate, causality, or just the universe in and of itself
This is such a bullshit cop out
To a certain extent you are correct and that is the point. For those leaders not so engrossed in the dogma abstracting away the idea of god acts as a bridge. Someone showing up to AA must believe in something outside of themselves as being more important than themselves otherwise why would you improve yourself? For religious leaders who operate in institutions, the ways of the institutions must be upheld, but it is also obvious that the institutional ways are bullshit and change is slow, so compromise is made to enable those who see through the bullshit to participate without drawing the ire of the “true believers”
edit: this compromise has been going on for a while and acts as the basis of the Unitarian-Universalist denomination
Someone showing up to AA must believe in something outside of themselves as being more important than themselves otherwise why would you improve yourself?
Because I don’t want to be an addict anymore? I have major issues with this. It’s like when people need the threat of eternal damnation in order to not be a complete piece of shit.
I don’t need to believe in a higher power in order to not want to be an addict anymore.
It’s like when people need the threat of eternal damnation in order to not be a complete piece of shit.
Outside of the obvious religious propaganda, this is just an external motivation. It could just as easily be somebody’s family: an ailing mother for whom they need to be ready to take care of, or a spouse and children for whom throwing their life away would be tragic.
I could say the reason I’m a humanitarian now is because I have a firm belief in happiness. If I lost that today, I probably wouldn’t change, but if I never had it, I have no idea if I ever would have gotten here.
If someone is in a bad place now and does not have an external motivation, I’m not saying it should be this or that, but it would make sense to give them one.
I mean, I do think AA is being coercive. I would prefer that they helped their… patients(?) find a motivation that was already meaningful to them instead of just imposing Christianity onto them. I have a lot of other problems with religion besides.
Thats true, but then they will turn around and start praying.
“God, grant me the…” It is kind of hard to look past that for some.Yeah :\
Personally I just turned that into a mantra, removing the “god” part, because it is a good thing to remember and try to live by, but I get the irritation
I mean, surely the worst part of drug addiction is the uh… Dying? Right?
There are things worse than death
Like living
Oof
Yeah, like being held in captivity and tortured endlessly. That’s worse than death. I wouldn’t really say becoming religious is on the same level as Guantanamo Bay.
Idk man. Watching a loved one throw their life and money away for an invisible man in the clouds is pretty akin to torture.
death is caused by overdose or medical malpractice such as refusing methadone during withdrawals. if all substances were decriminalized, the association between drugs and death would mostly go away
death is caused by overdose or medical malpractice such as refusing methadone during withdrawals. i
You can’t die from just opioid withdrawal. Alcohol and benzos on the other hand…
You technically can from dehydration, but it’s not the same risk as drugs that fuck with GABA receptors.
Yeah sure I agree but also that has basically nothing to do with my comment
you implied that death is a natural part of addiction which just isn’t true
What? Layne Staley died of his addiction, likely a blood infection based on the interviews ive seen. He refused to stop and get medical attention. My best friends mother drank herself to death, with a broken hip, she drug herself into her car and drove to the liquor store and just honked at people until someone would get the liquor she wanted, then drove home to drink alone. These people had every opportunity and resource to stop, and get the drug, and chose the drug, even when their health was wanning.
Death is perhaps one of the most natural part of addiction. Stopping is abnormal.
“death is perhaps the most natural part of diabetes. stopping insulin is abnormal”
Everybody dies.
That’s why people should use science backed treatments instead of religious nonsense.
either drugs, schizo, or STROKE turns you into a nutty right winger. the trifecta.
(sexual) abuse too. this short gives three good examples: shia labeouf, jonathan majors, russell brand.
Do you become an abuser? Or does sexual abuse make you religious?
i don’t think it makes you religious. I’m sure there have been cases where people have found it as a way of repentance later in life.
but for these assholes, they just know the news that come out makes them less likely to ever find a job, so they go where they know sexual abuse is embraced and celebrated: the right wing. religion is just a convenient way to say it because for religious people it sounds less like a grift than “I suddenly changed all my political beliefs I pretended to have”.
they do this because you can be a total monster but if you say you hate gay or trans people there’s a bunch of demons who will ignore everything else they know, and support you no matter what.
plus there’s always Hollywood rejects like Ben Shapiro to use whatever funds he’s getting to put you in awful movies that would’ve been in Hollywood to begin with if they had any talent.
or the sexual abusers, the ones mentioned only went to religion as a method to avoid criticism and consequences and to flee to people who accepts pedophelia, SA, they dont truley believe in it. RUSSEL brand is pretty obvious, he knew the SH/SA were coming to light so he recently became “baptized” as a form of shield against answering for being a predator.
Got it! Religion had been used as a form of social control, for bad or worse, since ever.
It’s a way for a clever, but pathetic narcissist to project their desired superiority on another being, do awful shit, and still feel righteous about it.
Woodchippers for them all!
Mental issues make you an easy target for religion.
Lots of things cause mental issues.
Not to say that all religious people have mental issues. It’s just religion has a compelling business model.
It’s from the brain damage.
It’s because they deliberately proselytize to vulnerable people at their lowest with promises of belonging and redemption.
To expand on this, AA is run by Christians that tell you only God and the baby Jesus can save you. Then they wait outside the meetings and pass out propaganda pamphlets. Scientology waits outside NA meetings. They are preying on the weak. It’s gross.
Wrong answers only… who hangs outside Sexual Compulsive Anonymous?
Not you!
I’ve never seen you there either!
Wrong answers only… who hangs outside Sexual Compulsive Anonymous?
People handing out coupons for free entry to the local strip club.
And also the brain damage.
And it’s a straightforward, hands held path to wipe away your sins and claim a clean conscience. Of course people will be tempted.
amen
Literally why The Satanic Temple has the Sober Faction. Secular support groups for recovery as opposed to first step put your faith in sky daddy.
Plus you get to say “I stay sober with the help of the Satanic Temple”. Guaranteed for a fun reaction.
I’m sober for Satan! How 'bout you?
-and then inevitably writing a book about it and going to speak public about it at the local prison.
“I was once like you… but then I FOUND THE LORDS PRAYER in my heart. Low and behold, I shortly found cheques for speaking fees in my mailbox. Hallelujah!”
Plenty of athiests, agnostics, pagans, etc in NA. Look for the queer online meetings for a start.
Just gonna leave this here…
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=is+being+religious+associated+with+getting+happier&l=1
holy crap, let me google that for you still exists?
But I do find it funny how Lemmy people will one jerk down vote anything that causes them any minor about it cognitive dissidence.
Never stopped.
Not much worse than ass prostituting yourself, I guess. But on the other side, if you sell your ass, you can buy some drugs and be good for a time. If you let Jesus in your life, his friends will want to take your money.
Amen!
