Tesla will sue you for $50,000 if you try to resell your Cybertruck in the first year::Tesla may agree to buy the truck back at the original price minus “$0.25/mile driven” and any damages and repairs.
This is, surprisingly, not that unusual for vehicles in high demand. It’s to prevent flipping.
GM does it on certain vehicles as well:
(the C8 Corvette Z06, GMC Hummer EV, and Cadillac Escalade-V if you want to know without clicking the link.)
GM wasn’t harsh enough IMHO. They should have black listed people who immediately flipped base C8s for significantly more than MSRP. Base C8s (not Z51) going for over 100k, with miles on them, was fucking ridiculous.
I’ll say it now: car dealers are useless dinosaurs and there is no point to having them anymore. I don’t need a dealer to tell me what options I want on my car. I can select those on a webpage after I’ve reviewed the available options. I need a place to take my car for service if it’s a factory failure / warranty work. I can do the rest myself or pay another focused professional to do the work.
Yeah, pretty much every Hummer EV I saw was at a dealership lot, used, and marked up $100k
I really like your second paragraph!
Agreed, but I absolutely need somewhere to test drive the car as well before purchasing. There’s no way I would buy a car without it.
I’m no fan of flipping/scalping but the choice of the degradation of ownership is much worse. If they really own the car then they aught to be able to resell it.
Prediction; this will extend beyond just high end cars.
Like with other manufacturers with similar limitations, the limitation for resale is only for the first year. It literally is just to try and prevent people buying and flipping the car for a profit. If you don’t like the vehicle you can sell it back to Tesla outside the normal return window. Or wait a year and sell it to someone else.
The reduction in ownership rights is worse than scalpers. Not sure why you assume this is pure benevolence instead of companies making more money via their control of property you paid for.
The reduction in ownership rights is worse than scalpers.
I suppose it depends: would you like to at least have the item or be able to buy it only at a 3x price, if ever ?
Other high brand cars have even more stringent clauses (like, you cannot repaint the car in a certain color to not ridicule the brand). People are even perpetually banned from buying from the brand in some cases.Not sure why you assume this is pure benevolence instead of companies making more money via their control of property you paid for.
It is not benevolence, it is a try to solve a real problem that they think it could arise.
I think it is not in anyone’s best interests to lessen their ownerships rights to maybe save money. Their choice is also bad for me in that it shows companies they can to it too and could become the norm.
If a manufacture has a good reason to not sell to someone that would be fine but it is none of their business what colour I paint my car, or who I can resell it too.
If they wanted to solve the problem they could make more cars to meet demand (without the needless use of microchips, if that is still the bottleneck).
I think it is not in anyone’s best interests to lessen their ownerships rights to maybe save money. Their choice is also bad for me in that it shows companies they can to it too and could become the norm.
While yours are valid concerns, that type of restriction works only on specific items. I don’t see a car manufacturer pull the same stunt on a mass production car (or any other mass production item for the matter) because the problem this try to solve does not exist in the first place, maybe Tesla just think (true or false that it can be or based on the data they have) that the Cybertruck will be some sort of “status symbol” which would attract scalpers or the like of them.
In the end this is a battle Musk cannot win: he will be damned if he do (to ban resell in the first year) and he will be damned if he don’t (and thus allowing scalpers). He can only choose why he will be damned so he choose a way that maybe is more friendly (or less enemy from your point of view) to the consumer.
If a manufacture has a good reason to not sell to someone that would be fine but it is none of their business what colour I paint my car, or who I can resell it too.
I can agree with you, but the fact that the manufacturer put these restrictions and people still buy their cars means that maybe it does not really matter to the buyers since having the car is much more important that being able to repaint it pink, in their view.
Only for the first year is bs. I bought an object, I own it and I decide when to put it on sale for whatever reason I want, because you know, I own it.
If Tesla doesn’t like that they can stop selling vehicles to the public. Or they can come up with something creative like renting them, or only selling one of this trucks to someone who has proven to be a fan boy and have already brought 1 or 2 Tesla’s before
I feel like if they want to prevent flipping for profit, make the agreement that you can’t sell it for more than you bought it for, but still allow the sale. Otherwise you’re not policing the right thing.
How about the manufacturer builds enough stock so scalping makes no sense? I believe that if I buy a product I am entitled to do whatever I want with it as long as it doesn’t brake the law. I hate scalping too, no1 did anything when it happened to GPUs or consoles or toilet paper during covid, so why are cars special?
Stock does not just appear out of thin air. Manufacturing takes time to ramp up. So it’s often not possible to produce enough for a high demand product.
So maybe don’t release a model until you have at least a decent amount of units? Still doesn’t explain why cars are any different than other products that are scalped. Why are they not lobbying to create laws against such practices?
the limitation for resale is only for the first year.
I hate the “slippery slope” argument, but in this case…
What if the limitation was 2 or 5 years? What if the fine was $100,000 or a million? If they get away with lesser restrictions, why wouldn’t they? The point is, companies already have way too much power over what a private person does with things they legally bought (Right To Repair, anyone?) and this seems like an escalation of that…
Real estate and Ticketmaster: “Fuck yeah, flip that shit and inflate our markets to insanity!”
Auto industry: “Fuck you, we do the inflating around here. Pay me!”
Ticketmaster owns the resale sites too. And the venue.
Ford notoriously sued John Cena for exactly that reason with his Ford GT
It really is to protect consumers from scalpers.
Dealerships are the biggest scalpers.
Dealerships suck and everyone except the dealers themselves will be over the moon once they’re gone, manufacturers most of all.
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Not really. I don’t particularly like them, but they don’t contribute much to the cost of cars. They barely make anything selling the car. That’s why they are always pushing extended warranties, accessories and trying to get you back in for service. Most of these guys are just hustling and getting as bad a deal as the rest of us.
The dealers are under huge pressure from the manufacturers to move cars. They are given sales targets they have to hit or they don’t get paid. That’s why they end up selling a car for like $500 profit or even break even. There’s a good episode of This American Life called “Cars”.
Of course, none of this applies to high-demand cars that sell themselves. They will mark those up like crazy to survive because the manufacturer doesn’t pay a bonus for those and barely gives them any inventory.
…forreal? You do realize dealership markups in the past few years have jumped as high as 40%?
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There’s nothing to stop anyone from buying a single unit and scalping it
It’s not “bizarre” in the slightest unless you’ve never heard of the concept of scalping.
There’s nothing to stop anyone from buying a single unit and scalping it
Except, you know, the economic principles of supply and demand
Except, you know, supply and demand are flipped on their fucking heads. That’s why this clause exists in the first place?
How
Presumably there’s going to be very few Cybertrucks. Supercar manufactures, with their very low production rates, generally have some kind of wait list, Ferrari goes to extremes and won’t even consider selling you most stuff if you’re not already driving a more entry-level Ferrari.
It’s not really about the money, though: If a Sheikh comes along and wants your car, he’s just going to add double the penalty amount to his offer. It’s more about getting shitbinned by the manufacturer.
Shame though. Would absolutely love to see a guy with a garage full of these things because he couldn’t find enough crypto bros to gouge.
Kinda curious why the company doesn’t raise their prices to fit demand then, since clearly, demand exists that allows those products to be sold for more (else the scalpers couldn’t profit). Not saying they should charge more, I’m just curious why an entirely profit-driven entity like a company wouldn’t charge as much for something as demand would allow for, it seems out of character?
Part of it is allowing the dealers to profit. If they price too high, there’s no wiggle room and incentive for the dealers to order the car.
Same with Ford F150 Lighting when it came out. Not sure if it still stands.
Hey look, freedom!
Not sure what you are talking about. I have the freedom to not sign some dumbass agreement with tesla and not purchase a shitty looking cyber truck, and I will use that very freedom. No one is being forced to take this deal.
You have the freedom as long as it stays niche. Having no protections against such practices means they have a chance of becoming so commonplace as to be unavoidable.
This is what people don’t understand and is why so many freedom and privacy-violating practices have invaded modern life. That being said, a nerfed version of this clause that only prevents you from selling it for more than you bought it for would be great for preventing scalping.
as is customary nowadays with everything now
“Just don’t buy it” is a time-limited argument. If it becomes the norm to require signing a contract for ownership then you’ll have to argue “just don’t buy a car”. If you don’t like cars then maybe that’s okay but for other items that position sucks ass.
At some point, people need to band together and do something. Like $12 hotdogs and beer at stadiums. If people would just collectively say no to shit like that and refuse to buy them for a number of games, they would be forced to bring the prices back down to something more reasonable. But we as a group just cannot seem to do things until an extreme is met. To put it in perspective what I am saying is, if everyone just didn’t buy it, then it wouldn’t become the norm.
It’s an extreme edge case that car companies use when they have low units and very high demand, this applies to like 10 car models lol. Definitely no indication that it’s going to become the norm.
If there’s monetary intensive for them to control reselling then I think it’s fair to assume. Cars manufactures have already tried to charge a subscription for heated seats already in the car and presumably stopped due to a perceive a backlash which would cost them more money (for now).
In software it’s very common to be unable to resell a purchase and it should be no surprise when car manufactures try to prevent functionality being used by 2nd hand owners (if they are not already doing that).
Pfft, look at this cat over here…Why would you not want to own a life size version of a poorly made pinewood derby car-truck? I, for one, am willing to let them install a 5G chip in my brain as an accountabili-buddy. I bet I survive at least 3 months with the bill gates chip!
The dumbass agreement is the problem, not the buyer.
Imagine this:
If I were the second hand buyer of such a vehicle (yes, that means the original buyer has violated the dumbass agreement), would you say then that I am bound to the dumbass agreement too?
“ Given the subscription model of much of the software Tesla EVs use, resale can be complicated. The Full Self-Driving feature, which costs up to $199 per month, is not transferable to a new owner, Fast Company reported.”
Just another reason I’m never buying
$199 per month?! Fuck me that’s moronic.
You don’t understand. It’s not like the self-driving feature is just software where they can price it at whatever they want. It’s physically consuming brain cells every month. And those aren’t free you know!
::: spoiler Do I really need a \s tag for this or does this tin foil hat make me look fat? :::
For my region it’s one time fee 9k $ “only”.
It is hilarious given the fact you can’t legally use it so it turns into better break asistent 😅They should make a discount for every person the self driving software hits. That shit would be basically free.
Wait so another owner can never have that or…?
I mean it’s not actual “full self drive” to begin with. It’s a lame impersonation of more advanced self driving vehicles that aren’t even being sold yet. That doesn’t matter to the elon fans though.
The lie that actually gets people killed, while also tainting the overall perception of autonomous vehicles. Thanks elon.
It’s just that the license isn’t transferable. The second owner has to (re)license the software from Tesla. Irrespective of whether the seller has a “perpetual” license.
I guess if your license could be transferred to your new vehicle this would kinda make sense —- although frankly I’d expect a recurring revenue subscription model instead. Basically this feels like they’ve just been throwing shit at the wall while failing to deliver the feature.
I read it as the second owner would have to pay for it themselves to (re)unlock it. So Tesla would get paid twice for the feature in one car.
It is a monthly subscription. I am not sure what the problem is? the new owner can choose to pay it or not.
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I must have misunderstood, because I know you have to pay $12,000-15,000 (seems the price has lowered) for the FSD to be available, then pay subscription on top of that. For some reason I thought they were saying the initial $12k+ “unlock” wouldn’t transfer.
Capitalism is so schizophrenic. Is supply and demand in a free market meant to decide the value of goods or not?? If regulations and penalties are required, why not across the board??
A company is not capitalism. Pure capitalism without any regulation doesn’t work, because it tends towards having one big company that controls everything. However, every single company by itself strives towards that goal, bribing politicians to get its way when necessary. Thus, if those bribes go unpunished (like through the Citizens United decision in the US), capitalism eventually eliminates itself.
Tesla doesn’t want some other company to buy all its vehicles and turn around and sell them at a higher price, damaging the press around the Tesla brand and stopping its cars from getting to would-be Tesla super fans. It’s the same reason stores will sometimes say “limit 2 per customer” on certain items.
That’s one reason, anyway.
If regulations and penalties are required, why not across the board??
for thee, not for me
as always
Jokes on them. I’d never buy one of these hilariously abhorrent piles of shit.
I used to think Teslas were cool. Now I just see the specter of Elon. Regardless, these look like a test for suckers.
Behind the wheel of one, I’d feel like an asshole.
Have you actually encountered a Tesla in the wild? They actually are all assholes.
I am from the vaginal canal of Tesla. Toyota Camry status.
In my experience they’re all Indian.
I honestly would rather have a cyber truck than a generic F150. Fuck Musk though, so I’ll pass.
There’s a reason Ford sells so many F150s.
They’re great trucks.
It is bizarre how much of a comic book villain Musk has turned in to.
What do you mean “Turned into” ?
I think the correct phrasing should be “turned out to be”
Apparently some people are okay with extreme racism so long as you convert it into money first.
He probably always was a bit of a right-wing loon, but everything about him over the last few years screams “cry for help”.
If he were a normal pleb, he’d have probably lost his job, or had a friend tell him that he needs to seek professional help. Because he’s a billionaire, I assume people just say he’s “eccentric” and laugh while people push him to do more crazy shit.
He doesn’t realise it, but people are laughing at him, not with him. He’s a performing monkey for the apathetic, and aspirational for the morally questionable.
It was always there. He just has the wealth not to care what anyone thinks now.
He has the wealth, but not the ego.
I think he has an inkling of that now. Since he got booed off stage multiple times and locked himself in isolation for a while.
The best solution to this problem is not to buy one in the first place.
Forget the obvious bullshit that is being unable to sell it. What’s this about autopilot/FSD not being transferable?
Who the hell would buy this monstrosity of a truck. Be sure not to buy FSD since it will be a lost cost and never recouped for a capability that really doesn’t work yet. $12,000 down the drain.
Who would buy it? The same type of people buying new BMWs. We all hate them, but they sell like crazy.
If you pre ordered it, you locked in the fsd price at the time which was 7k I believe.
If you add FSD to a trade in service, you’ll get 2-3000 back.
So it’s not as terrible a deal as buying it at full price right now where its unquestionably not worth it.
But don’t expect anything beyond level 2 for the lifetime of the vehicle.
You wouldn’t preorder a car.
Or what was the saying again…
Reminds me of the you wouldn’t download a car.
But maybe with this polygon count its possible
I mean that is slightly better. Still a waste of money. Get enhanced autopilot and leave it there.
Absolute deal-breaker. I will not be dictated to on what I may or may not do with my personal private property, beyond the bounds of the law.
Isn’t the fact that the thing is ugly and poorly-designed more of a deal-breaker?
I’ll bite. I don’t like the cybertruck, but I’d really, really love a car that doesn’t ding if you look at it the wrong way. The lack of paint is also one less thing to mess up.
I live in the mountains, and need to go over jeep trails to access part of my property. We are unbelievably hard on cars. I don’t care what it looks like, I just want to be able to beat the crap out of it.
I know this doesn’t apply to 99.999% of people, but just throwing out there that I have a different perspective in this area. Function over form is absolutely key for me.
but I’d really, really love a car that doesn’t ding if you look at it the wrong way.
Well you better hope you never ding the Cybertruck unless you want to replace an entire stainless steel panel and hope it aligns properly.
Also it’s stainless steel, not scratchless steel. Anyone who’s scrubbed a stainless steel pan knows they scratch up quickly.
I could personally care less about metal scratches, but white primer (or whatever color) under colored paint does bother me. Plus, when the paint peels off it invites rust.
I really just want an indestructible box on wheels (yes, I know the cybertruck isn’t it). Old unimogs sell well with people in the area - I’m just idealistic hoping for a bomber electric jeep one day.
sounds like you’d be best off getting an electric conversion if you really want something like that, I don’t think any manufacturer will be producing something like that anytime soon
I agree. I was wait listed for a Rivian, but was reading about quality issues, long maintenance waits, and very thin bodywork. That combined with the price made it a little unpalatable. We need a replacement soon, so I unfortunately think it will be gas.
Perfect panel alignment is more than one can expect from a Tesla direct from the factory
And the “bare stainless steel body panels” isn’t a new thing on a production car.
Unsurprisingly they had a ton of issues with it back then too.
Well you better hope you never ding the Cybertruck unless you want to replace an entire stainless steel panel and hope it aligns properly.
Like I said - I don’t like the cybertruck itself, but I like some of the aspects (thicker doors, no paint). I do apply aspects of this to cars that I own through expensive skid plates, rock sliders, etc. They are cheaper to replace than the bodywork, but I’d still like those to be a little beefier. Paint has been a sore spot for me with “desert pin-striping”.
I don’t know if you’ve ever owned anything with brushed stainless panels, but ding-proof they are not, and they’re generally WAY more noticeable. They also still need to be clear coated, otherwise every panel will become discolored over time.
otherwise every panel will become discolored over time.
Yeah I don’t care about that. My issue with my current truck is many of the places (50?) where I’ve scratched the paint off, and cleaned/re-painted it as soon as I could, have started to rust - which is probably going to result in the car being sold for scrap metal even though it’s still perfectly drivable. Eventually that rust is going to become more than just a cosmetic problem and the car definitely isn’t worth the time required to fix it properly (cut out the rust and put new sheet metal in it’s place).
I won’t be buying a cybertruck… but I definitely would prefer stainless steel over mild steel body panels. I’d like aluminium even better (stainless steel does still rust, just not as easily).
er owned anything with brushed stainless panels, but ding-proof they are not, and they’re generally WAY more noticeable. They also still need to be clear coated, otherwise every panel w
As long as they are a bit thicker than what typically is on a car, I’d be happy. Paint is also a huge PITA for me - I’d rather just have raw stainless rather than colored streaks on paint. That’s just my preference, though.
Is an electric vehicle really the best choice for you if you live in the mountains? I’m pro-electric vehicle but the thing about them is they really shine in denser areas where everything is close by. Unless your remote mountain region also has an adequate amount of superchargers but I feel like I probably wouldn’t.
Absolutely. You can easily create electricity on a remote mountain. Creating gasoline… that’s not really possible. You have to pay a fortune for someone to deliver it (or worse, go get it yourself). You can’t get gasoline delivered in bulk either - common ethanol blended gasoline can spoil in just two months and wherever you’re buying it from might have already stored it for a month or more.
Gas prices in back country areas are often double or quadruple what people pay in the city and living there also means driving a lot more per week. Electricity on the other hand is practically free if you produce it yourself (small scale hydro for example can cost a couple thousand dollars for reliable continuous power and if you’re in the mountains then you probably have that option).
Yes - I’m within ~100 miles of a city, and have my own large solar installation with batteries. Oddly enough, lots of electric chargers have popped up in ours and nearby towns (for people driving through).
I did a trip through the US and Canadian rockies last summer, and was pleasantly surprised with how many rural communities are getting some type of fast charger (lots of people driving through on vacation, I guess).
It’s also worth mentioning that most of my trips are <50 miles. The one that’s a really PITA I do frequently is only 20-30 miles, but takes 2+ hours (big rocks on an unmaintained road). I have been chomping at the bit for a real electric off-road vehicle. I’m honestly tired of car maintenance (I do all my oil changes since there’s not a good place nearby), and we’d like to use our solar installation a little more.
, but I’d really, really love a car that doesn’t ding if you look at it the wrong way.
Then don’t buy a Tesla, those pieces of shit fall apart if a bird shits on it.
There are multiple deal-breakers, yest.
Well here’s the thing, they don’t want it to be your personal private property, nevermind that you bought it they still want it to be theirs.
Fun fact, I could give a fuck what they want.
Because otherwise, you would have bought one.
In fact, I would not. But even if I would, this bullshit would be a deal breaker. It’s basically saying “we know you’re going to regret this purchase, but we’re going to put a barrier in place to keep you from dealing with it.” That’s a gigantic red flag for any product.
Did you write this on a PC or iPhone?
I borrowed your mom’s Zune.
You weren’t buying one anyway, what a weird comment.
You seem highly interested in whether I would have purchased one or not. What a weird comment.
Implying they produce enough to sell any at all, anyone is dumb enough to buy one, anyone if dumb enough to buy it off another dummy who bought one.
This is just Tesla stirring up a story, and trying to make it seem like anyone wants one of these monstrosities, and that they can make them.
I have a friend who preordered a cybertruck. But then again he also bought a model 3 and model X.
This is great: I was so frustrated by lack of availability for XBox, from all the scalpers. Same with tickets to pretty much everything. Same with Raspberry Pi. Look at how the eEVs like the Hummer and Lightning were hurt by both dealers and scalpers making vehicles hard to get and excessively priced
Scalping works great for those lower ticket items with tiny profit margins and high demand. Idk if it’s something cybertruck needs to worry about being none of those things.
Apparently it was a problem when previous Tesla models released
That was when everyone thought Elon actually had a brain
So is this thing actually called a “Cybertruck”? Because that sounds like something my 7-year-old would come up with. I hadn’t really given it much thought until now…
That’s how Musk names everything. He loves the letter X, he named the Tesla models “S”, “3”, “X”, and “Y”, the Cybertruck, his five most recent children including “Techno Mechanicus”… He’s absolutely unfit to be in charge of anything.
Oh my fucking word, it’s true
If this was 40k, Techno Mechanicus would be an amazing name 😂
It’d still be a job title
It also looks like someone drew the initial plans for it in crayon on a napkin, so that checks out.
I can’t see it without seeing Homer Simpson in that car he designed.
Musk being childish and you’ve only realised now? What hole have you been in (and is there space for one more?)?
The glass punch during presentation was the sign of things to come.
How is that legal?
I saw an episode of LegalEagle (I think it was about NFTs) and it’s a terms of sale thing and he spoke about John Cena doing something similar with Ford:
I found the LegalEagle episode:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=C6aeL83z_9Y&si=vONBqJ14_KZ65lF8
It’s around 6:49
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/watch?v=C6aeL83z_9Y&si=vONBqJ14_KZ65lF8
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
lobut’s explainer video explains the contract law provision, but to be honest, it’s a deeply cynical use of contract law. The reason is that typically (and for nearly every piece of retail-sold property), you have property rights exactly like what everyone in this thread is intuiting. Those property rights absolutely would give you the right to resell.
Contract law trumps those rights, and Cena signed a contract. That is where the discussion keeps ending. But a court, if it’s circumspect enough, may continue the case long enough to examine how property and contract rights are in conflict. And it’s entirely possible property rights may win in the end.
Why? Because the contract may be invalid if it is “illusory.” An illusory contract is as it sounds based on a false presumption of exchanged value (“consideration”) or a false promise of performance from Tesla. Here, Tesla may be technically complying with contract consideration requirements by lumping the actual Cybertruck into the value exchange, which sounds right from a contract law perspective. However, if Tesla is not offering substantial value beyond what a typical retail sale would be, and if they are only offering the same ongoing services as typical retail customers, there is a small chance a court may decide that the contract is a pretext to in fact simply (and illegally) limiting property rights.
That said, I’d give it maybe a 5% chance of success. Contract law is one thing most judges will almost never interfere with. Which is why Tesla and others are doing it. They typically only do it with cars like high-end sports cars.
But importantly, it could become commonplace for anything you buy even at retail when combined with “clickwrap” agreements - i.e., agreements like in software that activate when you use or open the product. So it’s very very important that we continue to push back on this.
is this even legal ?
Presumably, as a term of delivery, you’ll sign an agreement not to sell with 50K USD as the liquidated damages. So, yeah probably.
You can sue anyone anywhere anytime. If you have really good expensive lawyers you might just win.
It probably is, a la Ferrari.
it’s been done before by plenty of other auto companies. I remember Toyota had that for the LFA, Ford did it with the GT, etc.
Hopefully it gets challenged.
I do not believe it would be unless you had previously signed a contact agreeing to the conditions. If that doesn’t hold water I could see tesla arguing that you are allowed to sell the vehicle however you may not sell the software included in the vehicle as that’s their intellectual property and they only authorized you to use it. And since you can’t separate the software from the vehicle it would accomplish the same thing.
This sounds like the kind of thing Ferrari does, that people accept because if you own a Ferrari you’re kinda part of an exclusive club of rich assholes. Teslas are expensive but they’re not “exclusive club” expensive, they’re more like BMWs.
they’re more like BMWs.
Complete with asshole drivers.
Yeah, there’s also the fact that rich wankers buy a limited edition car on pre-order, then sell that pre-order for more than they paid for it because it turns out even richer wankers also don’t tend to plan ahead and will pay extra to jump the queue and have this year’s fancy new model at the last minute.
I know somebody that did this a few times, and then got stuck with a £100k sports car when a recession hit.
Hah.
