Make it affordable and I’ll buy one tomorrow.
Let’s talk VW specific. I would absolutely love an ID.Buzz. But you made the fucking thing SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.
Did VW ever implement one pedal drive? Total non starter for me a few years ago (got a volvo instead).
You probably don’t even know how much you’ve spent in gasoline and repairs for the ICE cars you’ve owned.
I calculated this. Came out to somewhwre under $5k to drive my Golf 4 for like 8 years including the buying price. But yea whatever floats your boat big dog.
$5k doesn’t buy 8 years of gasoline. Also, note that it’s always the gasoline people who think using names like “big dog” is a good idea.
Is that some kind of gotcha or something?
The average car buyer does not want to buy an expensive EV just to have an EV and will buy a $40k Toyota Sienna before they buy a $60k VW ID.Buzz.
Pretty easy to grasp…It’s not rocket surgery. Make affordable EVs and not upmarket EVs and people will buy them. China figured that out.
That extra $20k is for the EV’s battery. If you don’t spend it there, you’ll spend it on gasoline and ICE maintenance. Look at life cycle cost. Total costs over 8-10 years of ownerership. The average buyer will have less noise, less emissions, instant torque control, home charging, and cost savings if they keep the EV long enough.
Even assuming those numbers are accurate it’s irrelevant. If I don’t have $60,000 then I can’t buy a $60,000 car even if it would be a sound investment over the long run.
If you insist on buying a car new instead of second-hand, that’s on you.
The used market isn’t much better. I can’t afford a $26,000 EV with 100k miles on it. That’s insane.
A higher budget surely allows for more options and less excuses. In my view, anyone with a 50k budget has no excuse to choose ICE over EV.
China figured that out.
This isn’t an issue with electric vehicles its an issue with EV’s from traditional ICE based car companies. Especially those not from China.
Sure, they have to buy their batteries from China, who probably enjoys that profit margin. Traditional ICE based car companies dug their own graves by insisting on staying at the starting line for 20 years, pushing their ICE garbage instead of supporting local refinining.
Yeah shame. Take out all the tech bullshit I dont want and I bet that number gets cut nearly in half. Abs, efi, maybe airbags if you want.
We can make simple vehicles. They just refuse to. Becuase simple won’t break and be unrepairable by the end user. Gotta jeep those stealerships in business with proprietary tools.
In short, with late stage capitalism you will never have a good car again.
Can they make real cars and not stupid egg crossovers?
I’m so damn sick of ugly ass crossovers.
I want the old 3-door hatchbacks to come back. Like how the civic hatchback used to be.
Smol car with a PHAT ASS.
Have a 2011 Lexus ES330 (gas, V6), and a 2013 Nissan Leaf (EV, ~60 miles of range). Both my wife and I prefer driving the Leaf around town because it’s just plain fun. We keep the Lexus for long trips, but could honestly get by with a rental if we ever needed to.
I got my first car 24 years ago. A hand-me-down that my grandpa bought with 87kkm on it, that my brother crashed. It took a lot of welding to get that car to pass inspection.
Four cars later I still have never owned a new car. I aim to buy 10yo without a loan. My current one no longer gets updated maps for its built-in infotainment system.
If I buy a 10yo EV it’ll definitely need a new battery pack. That changes the economy completely. I guess it’s cheaper to drive so I’d shell out for 10yo of driving in advance.
Make charging take 10 minutes and make them affordable and many people would switch over. Also start installing charging stations at gas stations so you have both options in the US.
I’m sorry I’ve read that headline a few times and it doesn’t make any sense anymore than the first time.
How are cars like Horses and what does that have to do with EVs? What’s this going on about?
I’m only interested when the vehicles are simple and affordable and the charging stations are fast and ubiquitous.
You can already drive cross country in almost any EV. There are more charging stations in my area than there are gas station.
Mechanically, EVs are very simple. Cost and “complexity” (app, touchscreens, etc) are rampant in ICE cars today as well, so buying one of those won’t really make a difference there either.
Yea I’m all for simplicity. But honestly a modern EV is probably LESS complex than a modern ice. They all have the same complexities with stupid computers for every component (body control modules, “infotainment” crap, hell vw likes to have a module in each door and each seat to controll door locks windows etc) but Ice also had complications of an engine. I love gas engines I’m a gear head, but let me be the first to tell u that there’s a LOT less going on in an electric drivetrain than a gasser. Sure the control modules for evs are computers in of themselves, but a modern auto drivetrain has a computer for the engine and a sperate computer for / in the transmission, plus they both have computers for abs/tc and interior crap and cameras etc. My hurdle to adopting electric is their so goddamned expensive that they can’t outweigh oil, gas, and service costs yet. (If you disagree about that, that’s another conversation. I drive sub 3k$ cars when I have to but mainly ride motorcycles and do my own work so no there isn’t a way to get around cheaper in an EV than an ice for me yet)
My hurdle to adopting electric is their so goddamned expensive that they can’t outweigh oil, gas, and service costs yet.
Yeah, that is the real issue with EVs, and probably the only complaint I’ve seen in all these comments that is valid.
It shocks people when I tell them this, but I did NOT buy an EV to save money. In most situations, buying a new (to you) car will cost you more than fixing the old car many times over. So I’m not shocked that I’m paying more for the EV. I’m more shocked that with the insane cost of gas lately, my EV is getting close to breaking even on monthly driving cost compared to my partner’s civic.
I think it’s funny that the complaint people bring up in these kinds of threads; that EVs aren’t that “green”, that they are unreliable, that charging is inconvenient, or that they aren’t practical… is completely wrong, and people who have EVs love them because they are exactly the opposite of that.
The module in each door is actually a cost saving - All you gotta send to the door is canbus/linbus, power, ground and an optical cable from the headunit for (potentially) an in-door amplifier.
Which will be 20 years.
People seem to forget gas cars took 50+ years to become widely adopted. They were not really accessible to the middle and lower classes until after WW2.
For some reason people here just want to scream and moan and browbeat anyone who doesn’t want to buy an EV today, when they are unaffordable, inconvenient, and make zero sense unless all you do is commute to work and run local errands. Lots of vehicles are used for different purposes.
I wouldn’t call any car affordable these days so that’s a moot point. The rest of your description of EVs is not accurate at all. I drive an EV long distances across rural Montana regularly. If it works for me I can guarantee it would work wherever you are.
I’m not you. There are no ev charging stations in rural areas where I go. it’s just woods.
First, you buy a charger at home. Then you don’t need any more. Or you drive from charger to charger. You just don’t get it.
What was that about the ID.Polo being 25k again?
- Sub 500 euro/mo lease
- Enough range to handle my 340km round trip with the A/C on or in the snow.
- Not a disgusting soft blob with a cheap strip club interior (looking at you mercedes) or a brick shaped SUV (looking at you Hyundai, though the front ripping on the Rangerover is quite handsome)
Just give me a premium-ish feeling sedan from a boring brand. Why can’t I buy a small, fully loaded ford or citroen or hyundai any more?
The problem is that modern cars are shitty. It doesn’t matter if it’s a petrol, diesel or electric car. If I can’t repair it myself, it’s a poor quality car. The fact that you might need specialized paywalled software to remove error codes after fixing the car is just awful.
Most people I’ve spoken with that claim that they don’t like electric cars eventually agree that they don’t like modern cars. Mainly due to how closed everything is.
Yeah, vendo lock in is what has stopped me from purchasing a BYD seal
Repairing doesn’t even really apply to evs. It’s not like you bust out a wrench to fix your tv.
EVs still have a ton of shit that will invariably break and need repairing/replacement at some point. A huge amount stuff I’ve had to fix on my cars had nothing to do with the engine/transmission and are universal on road vehicles: Brakes, rust, wipers, plastic in direct sunlight, digital displays, head lights, dozens of belts and motors that run on tracks, mechanical doors, AC.
Most of which can be repaired with a stop at parts store and a couple of common tools IF the manufacturer hasn’t locked it behind some bullshit security bolt or a lockout chip.
It does. Brakes, suspension. Lights wipers window motors etc, all that shit breaks.
And when I need a fucking dealer computer to “unlock” it to fix my brakes or a broken window motor, fuck that shit.
If a TV cost $60k, I’d bust out a wrench to fix it. It’s usually a blown capacitor that costs pennies to fix.
CRTs are easily repairable with like 3 tools in most cases. Many are 30 years old and never been maintained properly still going. Flat screens are Another example of modern tech being shit for longevity and repairability.
I’m not entirely against EVs but they’re simply not ready for me yet. I think an actual usuable 300 mile range would be enough for me which we’re probably approaching quite soon. The biggest problem though is the cost and complete lack of nice estate car EVs. £10k is usually my budget for a new car and I very rarely pay that.
A 300 mile range means you spend over 4 hours driving your car in one day.
The price is definitely the bigger issue for EVs, but even then they definitely need to either roughly double range or halve charging time from 20% to 80%. Right now, they don’t quite cover enough of users needs, especially at the price. I need a vehicle that covers 90-95% of my use cases, and EVs are sitting closer to 80%.
Your EV charges at home while you are sleeping. I spend less time “refueling” my EV than I spent putting gas in my hybrid, even including the occasional fast charging stops.
I like the ioniq 5 n and it would be my choice if I were given an EV as a daily driver, but the range is too low at around 220 miles. I would be able to survive on that will minimal issue, but I take 3+ hour one way trips fairly regularly for events or to see friends. If that was closer to 300 mil range, I think I’d be fine with it as a lot of super charger will get to 80% charge in about 15 min. My average fill up on a road trip is probably 10 min, so I could live.
The biggest factor is msrp on the ioniq 5 n is like $65k, so not happening.
I bought an MG4. Pretty cheap and goes well. If VW wants to compete then that’s the target.
Literally every single person that I talked to that seriously tried an EV (like, as a daily driver for some time, not just the rental you had for a day) said they were never going back to combustion engines.
My partner loves their Civic. They will wait all day for me to get back from work so they can take the fake Mustang though. I still can’t convince them to sell the Civic, but we’re putting maybe 1000 miles on it a year now, probably a lot less, versus about 21,000 on the Mach-E
I don’t have an EV, but I can imagine it would be nice to not have to go to the gas station once a week.
I’ve had an EV for a couple of years and had to rent a gas car on a trip recently. I was prepared for the expensive fuel, I wasn’t prepared for how shit it was to drive.
See, an EV’s electric motor and (usually) single reduction gear means you get basically the same acceleration between 5 km/h and 120 km/h. You can put your foot down slightly and forget you’re accelerating because it feels just like sitting in a stationary car on a hill. How far you push the accelerator is how much acceleration you get. Unless you’re getting wheel spin or you’re at the car’s power limit, that’s all there is to it.
A gasser has an engine with different performance depending on RPM and a gearbox that provides different performance based on which gear it’s in and changes according to it’s own logic. You’re just used to this when you drive one all the time, but for me it was awful the way I’d put my foot down and get nothing, then engine noise, then some power, then a lurch and more power and another lurch and less power. The accelerator pedal is a suggestion, mostly disconnected from what the car actually chooses to do.
Yeah, I drive an EV and will never go back to gas.
I mean maybe if I had a project car or something but even then my thoughts drift towards how I might swap an electric drivetrain…
I get the sentiment, and I’ve said it before but when my current daily goes, an EV of some sort will likely take its place. Even given the poor charging infrastructure where I am, mathematically it is clearly the sensible choice.
But for the things I can’t measure with a calculator, I’ll have at least one ICE vehicle for a long as it’s feasible to do so. There are boxes that EVs - and I’ve spent plenty of time with them - simply don’t tick for me.
What is your view on hybrids?
I like the idea of a plug in hybrid.
But there’s a lot more to a car for me. I need it to be affordable. I need replacement parts to also be affordable, and I need it to be user serviceable.
This is why my 20 year old Honda, and my wife’s 13 year old Lexus are both ideal.
Mine is a Honda, which means parts are everywhere, even in the deep deep south. It’s easy to repair basically any issue with it. I have no car note, and liability insurance is $32 a month for it.
Hers is a Lexus, which is for all intents, a Toyota. Which also means parts are ubiquitous. I swapped a water pump in it over a weekend. And I had never done that before. Sure, I’ve always done basic maintenance, but until about 3 years ago, I didn’t trust myself to do anything more in depth.
When my previous car (also a Honda) had a head gasket failure, I swapped it. Took me several months because I was learning as I went. But I did it.
Why? I had no choice. Couldn’t afford another car, and couldn’t afford the 2 to 4 hour labor rates a $20 gasket needed. What would’ve cost 500 to 600 bucks if I’d had someone else do it, wound up costing me less than $150. Had the head machined at a local machine shop, and that less than 150 bucks included that cost.
As I’ve heard my entire life, “po folks gots po ways”
Not OP, but conventional hybrids are alright. Plug-In hybrids are kind of a waste, and really only see benefits in very niche situations.
Pay for two mobility solutions when you only need one… and, as a negative bonus, you’re still reliant on paying for oil and gas.
We need to separate the feeling of driving from practicality. EVs are pleasant to drive for sure. Having to plan your trips around charging is annoying, there isn’t really much progress there.
The only reason I want a car is to do spontaneous trips to less populated areas. I already have range anxiety, I top up as soon as I’m below 1/3 of the tank. Batteries make it worse.Sorry, but can’t relate. Had that feeling for the first few trips until the first one where we drove so much more efficiently that we deliberately did not take the first planned stop. I rode shotgun, so I then looked for alternative spots to charge, just to see that there are so many in my country that having planned those routes in the first place literally doesn’t make sense.
Since then we just drive. Once we get below 50 km remaining range, we check some map app for the next charger. Like we did with gas stations.
Also, coming from practicality… it’s just so nice not to have to use gas stations. Like, you usually just always start whatever you do with a full battery because you just charge it overnight. No gas stops on my commute is quite practical.
It’s ok if u can’t relate, different people and places have different needs. Where I live there are areas where if you don’t fill your tank, you won’t make it to the next fuel stop. And no, the trees don’t have charging cables hanging off them. If you can do it that’s awesome, but they don’t work for people in rural cold climates quite yet! I’d love to have an “EV” hybrid thing with a smaller battery and a diesel on board generator, zero range anxiety and bonus points if the generator is an old mechanical diesel that can run veggie oil or used oil from my other shit boxes or various biofuels. Sure it won’t be as clean as a true EV but I bet it would be more efficient than a gas car.
I drive an EV, and planning around driving habits is simply not a thing for me. It’s hooked up to its 230v charger and will be ready at 100% charge every morning. I drive the 50km to work and back for about 25% worth of charge. There’s a few public chargers on the way to work and almost anywhere I care to go. Range anxiety is waaay overblown in my opinion.
If you can charge at home yeah it’s fine, otherwise you’re fucked. I had an ID3 and could only charge at work or at an expensive charger at a gas station.
I had to plan charging at work otherwise I couldn’t decide on a whim to go see my mum on Sundays. The itinerary took around 60% of the battery in summer and only one charging station in between, which is not working half the time. So either I take 30-60 minutes before going to charge (hoping the charger is working and available), or I can throw the dice and hope the chargers on the way works this time.
It’s not so much range anxiety than the infrastructure around me not being enough.
Edit: and by charge at work, I mean go to the nearest charger near the office and remember to get the car back once full to avoid overtime fees. Work took 3 years to install chargers on the office parking.
Oh no, I have to stop for 15 minutes after four hours of driving, every time I drive more than four hours at a time.
I have anxiety right now just thinking about the next time I have to spend that 15 minutes in a couple months from now.
Do you think I can save up all the times I don’t stop for gas between now and then and use that as some sort of credit towards that time?
I can’t share that feeling. My country has a law that every parking garage and parking lot must have chargers and often a fast charger is installed. I really have to go a few countries over to a place that’s not full of chargers.
I disagree. I have had an EV since 2018 and I can honestly say I never want another one. My next vehicles going forward will be ICE 100%.
I’m also going to make sure that they are older and have little to no infotainment / internet connected systems.
A sub year 2000. Maybe a nice Accord or Jeep.
I’m over this dystopian nightmare.
It sounds like your problems aren’t with EVs. It sounds like your problems are with any modern car.
Both. But I rather fill up anytime for 2 mins than having to plan out my charging and waiting 45 mins. This is my biggest gripe.
The spyware, while a big concern, is secondary to my refueling schedule.
What were you driving, a 2013 Bolt?
EVs charge at 200kW now, not 40.
Sadly a first year model 3.
You’re driving a pretty old EV at this point. EV charging speeds have improved significantly. Also there are PHEVs now, why not split the difference?
I have no idea what PHEV means. Sorry.
You sure have strong opinions for someone who knows almost nothing about the topic
Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle. Sometimes called “Extended Range Electric Vehicles”. TLDR: has a smallish battery you can plug in and charge that gives you something like 30 to 50 miles of range. Then a gas engine to use when the battery is low.
It’s a good option for anyone who has limited daily driving and the ability to charge overnight. Sadly they’re pretty rare. People will complain about “paying for 2 drivetrains” but cost-wise and feature-wise they make a lot of sense for people with occasional needs to drive longer distances.
If you search on cars.com it’s a filter option under “fuel type”. For my zip code there’s currently 3.9K hybrid, 2.4K electric and only 19(!) plug-in hybrid listed.
I’ve got 180 used PHEVs available on auto trader within 50 miles. Prob depends on the area
Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicle. it has a gas engine and an ev motor. the ev gets charged through regenerating breaking our through a charger. you get the best of both worlds.
Except for the maintenance of an ICE car.
Where do you drive that 45 minute fillups mid-travel are necessary? Surely that is rare at least.
I never said anything regarding mid travel?
I charge at 20% to 80% regularly and up to 100% if I’m making a longer trip.
Is it the drive train you have a problem with or the software? Because I think you just dislike new cars, not electric cars. In which case keep an eye out for the Slate EV
Nice, first I’ve heard of Slate. Privacy-focused EV and looks like they offer customizable trucks and SUVs.
Edit:
Looking at it further, it appears it’s a pick-up truck with an optional SUV conversion kit. I like the tinkerer aspect of it, but the “SUV” would have 2 doors instead of 4, which is certainly not ideal. It’s already a pain in the ass to strap a child into a car seat with 4 doors. I’d also be curious about the passenger safety of those riding in the back seat with regard to how securely the rear roof and frame are attached. I also wonder how this vehicle will get around the U.S. law coming into effect in 2027 where vehicles must have a kill switch. Overall, it seems like a $20k truck would be compelling, but the SUV concept needs more work.
If Slate makes a reliable vehicle from a new model from a new company, it will be an industry first.
It’s the waiting 45 minutes to charge that I hate.
There are newer models that can charge to 80% in 15 min. It will probably take a while until fast chargers are widespread, but this is where things are going.
That won’t stop battery degradation.
Yeah, it won’t.
ICE engines also need oil changes, transmission fluid, headgaskets,belts.
I agree that modern “it’ll spy on you” car software sucks ass. The actual battery and charging tech is way way better than 2018 though. No one has to stop for 45 minutes.
Yea and I can do my own maintenance. That’s another factor that sucks about EV. You can’t even do any work yourself.
Oh look, a shell representative
don’t you just charge overnight most of the time?
that’s what most poeple do
Yea, would be nice if I had my own house to add a charger to. I rent and have to use communal chargers.
Ok so you bought an electric car knowing full well you were not able to charge it at will at night (and I assume nowhere in your regular daily routine, like at work) and now complain about that?
I’m from Canada and I hate I bought a giant bikini collection but bikini season is only 1 month here… therefore, bikinis suck!
I didn’t buy it. It was gifted to me. I didn’t know anything about EV. After having used it now for 8 years, I know I never want another EV ever again.
Have you asked your work to add chargers?
Condos generally won’t let you have chargers. HOA hate everyone.
Not everyone can afford the boomer American dream of detached housing.
then why buy an electric car when OP knew full well charging was going to be troublesome?
They should stop with that touch screen crap, always connected to the internet spyware bullshit, but they are putting that everywhere now not just EVs.
We will soon be in the siutuation where if you want an old car without that crap you can’t even go into the larger eu cities anymore, because the engine will be too polluting.
There really is a market for cars without that crap. As long as it brings me and my family to destination safely I don’t care how it is propelled.
My first vehicle ever was a 1987 Suzuki Samurai JX and I regret losing it to this day. I have not been able to match it with any subsequent vehicle I’ve owned.
If you can find a Saab from before GM bought em that’s still in good condition… *chef’s kiss* perfection.
Saab reminds me of an old 80s movie named ‘Moving’ with Richard Pryor.
Is that the one where he goes crazy and like hijacks the moving truck with his stuff in it?
Nah, it’s the one that he moves his family across the country and shenanigans occur.
He has a Saab and hires a stranger to drive it across the country for him.
I liked 1 of the electric bikes I tried, and Ill admit its probably objectively better in terms of practicality, but I kinda prefer gas.
For what exactly
seeing as it’s about bikes, probably the noise
For riding, perfectly linear torque without a clutch is kind of boring. Charging was kinda complicated due to 2 competing charging networks and poor infrastructure, Also I’m unclear on how to get one fixed, whereas anyone in this country can fix a honda.
Fortunately they need fixing way less often
Maintenance is another huge benefit of EVs.
Yes, and the number of ev taxis and delivery mopeds in China tells me in the long run, it is cheaper. But I live in an ICE-centric society, if my bike is doing something funny, I can probably diagnose the problem, if not I’m probably within 100 feet of someone who can. If its not worth fixing, there’s enough of a used market I can get a used one for less than 1000 USD that will carry me hundreds of km at highway speeds. We must contend with the world as it exists now.
Reduced maintenance, yes. But I haven’t (yet) found an independent mechanic that can work on my Bolt, so the little maintenance I need has to be done at the dealer.
I still took that deal, but it has room for improvement.
What does this headline even mean?
Are electric horses better than gas powered horses or what?
Yeah, it’s phrased in a weird way.
He is saying that when cars were becoming popular, lots of people insisted that horses were better. Over time, basically everyone realized that cars are better.
Now electric cars are becoming popular, although lots of people insists that ICE cars are better.
He is saying that over time, people against electric cars will change their mind, just like the horse-people did.
Henry Ford once said somethimg like: if i had asked people what theh wanted, they would’ve said faster horses.
Electric engines are better than horses
Electric horses are better than engines
Even the Empire knows that!
It’s a simple analogy. Cars are horses but cars are also cars. And of course cars are better than horses.
Ah yes, I do remember preferring the electrical horse back then.
