Harm reduction voting is kicking the can down the road, or in Christian terms ‘robbing peter to pay paul’
It’s based in fear and cowardice. The only way we will ever change anything is if we are collectively fearless and fucking stand for principles
Give a productive example
There are numerous examples of successful socialist revolutions. China is an increasingly relevant example.
Look at where we are now. With the ratchet effect. You keep voting for genocide? Guess what you get. Kamala literally said there would be no difference, the most lethal military ever, campaign with a McCain and where did that lead us
She also identified Iran as the “biggest threat”. Almost like there’s a continuity of agenda!
but liberals at least talk about things like operation orange chicken with the discussion as the main part of their resistance movement
we should call Trump “cheeto” or “orangutan” even more often, it’s like 10x effective than silly stuff like organizing for revolution for the proletariat
Friendly reminder that a common propaganda tactic is to discourage your opposition from voting
Marxists have been against reformism since the beginning. Is your point that communism is a GOP tactic?
The way you get people to join the revolution is to help them, you have to give them as much of a taste of what your idealogy can bring as you can. You don’t need to be a part of government to do that, but it helps you reach more people. When people say get organized, one of the things that mean js being a part of local government and that requires someone to vote for you. Mamdani has done more for socialism in America then anything else has in a long time. This isn’t to say americans shouldn’t revolt, they absolutely should, but local representation is intrincincly linked to that, and they can take the form of union reps, community leaders and yes even local politicians.
Exactly. And especially getting involved locally, where you can have a greater influence and more readily make a difference.
So real… lol
I would rather liberals don’t have a revolution, last thing I want is more liberalism
Liberal revolution be like:
My wife made that exact same joke when I told her about this
If you want revolutionary action:
- Start or contribute to a community garden
- Help round up unused meds to distribute to people in need
- Help with Food Not Bombs
- Donate clothing and other goods
- Stop buying needless shit
- Pirate everything; subscribe to nothing
- Donate school supplies
- Tear down and disable Flock cameras
- Attend public forums and speak up to your local officials
Revolution is never going to be one big action or event that kicks off. Not like the movies try to convey it. It’s a collective rejection of things we have control over—most of which involve our wallets.
You wanna vote? Vote. Don’t want to? Don’t. The reality and the thing that folks need to grasp is that the ruling class will never let you vote away their power. Argue all day long; it doesn’t matter. It’s a fact. You can either sit around wishing you had the power to flip a switch, or you can do things on a local level to help those in need.
I’d also add joining a revolutionary party.
Or hijack and revolutionize a party with the infrastructure to win.
Entryism historically doesn’t work well. Even if a political party were to flip, winning electorally still doesn’t let you establish socialism within the confines of capitalism. You still need revolution.
Entryism historically has faired better than a “revolutionary” third party. No party aside from Dems and Republicans have controlled congress or the presidency since the 1850s. More recently we have seen political flips. FDR’s New Deal coalition failed to include LGBTQIA+, but the coalition survived 30ish years with prosperity for the working class* before ultimately being destroyed by Nixon and ultimately Reagan.
My point being, that the last 2 times revolutionary politics wete introduced (FDR and Reaganism/Trumpism) it led to YEARS of success for the party:
Healthy, well-regulated capitalism is complementary to socialism. In a world of abundance capitalism gives power to the workers to choose how they want to spend their time and to work on the projects they’re passionate and proud of, while socialism evens the playing field for kids to be able to grow up and participate on an equal footing, and it enables entrepreneurs to take greater risks to advance society’s collective prosperity. Healthy, well-regulated (but still flawed) capitalism existed for under 50 years. It did not address bigotry and other social injustices, as society was considered to be a monolith of white men. Socialism in this same time frame would have had the same issues: unaddressed bigotry and unequal footing.
It should also be noted that legislation has increasingly made it more difficult for a 3rd party to participate. So while there was limited success in 2000, States have made it more difficult for third parties to have success.
We need a revolution. I would rather a peaceful revolution, and I’m sure you would too. But regardless of the shape the revolution takes, following a path of least resistance is a less labor intensive way to grow a movement, and it’s a playbook that has worked well against the LGBTQIA+ community.
“Trans people shouldn’t play sports” offends fewer people than “trans people shouldn’t live” even though they mean the same thing. That’s why Republicans have hit sports so hard. It’s why they targeted local drag shows not Ru Paul’s Drag Race. Take a page from their book. Tea party the shit out of the Democrats.
If you want to build a movement quick, get quick wins. Boycott a local restaurant for hosting a Nazi candidate, as opposed to boycotting Walmart. Creating a 3rd party pushes an elected revolution back by a minimum of 4 years (since many states dont give ballot access unless you hit 5% in the previous election).
*Of course, the cis straight white folk faired the best
There’s a few critical misunderstandings you have.
Revolution is not simply change. Revolution is the conquest of state power by one class against the previous. Both FDR and Reagan serve the capitalist class, neither was a revolution but instead a shift in how capital dictates.
Further, you are entirely erasing imperialism. The New Deal grew alongside the US Empire. It was a way to export the contradictions within society to the global south. With the 50s onward, the US Empire was the world hegemon, super-exploiting the global south for super profits. Domestically, ethnic minorities and indigenous peoples were crushed, alongside LGBTQIA+ people. Internationally, the global south was horrendously butchered for profit. It is through the exploitation of the global south that both capitalism and a large welfare net remained.
The rise of Reagan was the triumph of imperialist capital reaching a new stage. Neoliberalism is the imperialism of the modern era, where finance capital has shifted from simple capital export to neocolonialism and unequal exchange.
“Healthy, well-regulated capitalism” cannot exist, nor can it be complementary to socialism. Markets can play a part in either system, but the question of who society serves is determined by which class controls the state and the commanding heights of the economy. China has a socialist market economy, and leverages this to uplift the people. Finland, the other user’s previous example, has a capitalist economy, and uses it to plunder the global south and bribe their domestic working class.
Socialism is not welfare. Socialism is not the public sector. Socialism is a system, as capitalism is. There is no such thing as an “elected revolution.”
What is critically necessary is revolutionary organizing for the purpose of overthrowing the old, capitalist state apparatus, and creating a new worker state. This has been done around the world successfully many times before, and we need to learn from their efforts. Not simply hide imperialism and hope to share in the spoils of it.
If your starting point is the US you could still move towards something like Finland without a revolution.
Be part of the cultural change that would be required for that.
Finland is still an imperialist country, that’s why it has the system it does without revolution. They simply exported the major contradictions within society to the global south, aligning their proletariat and bourgeoisie against the global south. Capitalists still dominate Finland and workers don’t have power, they just have more generous welfare, which could be taken away at any time by the capitalists if conditions changed and imperialism weakened.
I’d much rather be a part of a revolutionary party that actually stands to move humanity forward.
Buy guns and learn to use them
Same applies to modern protest. A big rule of thumb for this shit is: Can the evil leaders ignore what you’re doing? If so, they will. If you cry about how there should be “no kings;” you’re essentially hoping that the worst people on earth suddenly develop a conscience, hear your plea, and correct all of the bad things they’ve done. No, they’ll just ignore it. Here are some disruptions to the status quo that they can’t ignore:
- The economy (go on strike, protest on weekdays, don’t be orderly, in-fact, be a total nuisance to the day-to-day operations in a city - preferably a “high value” location)
- The panopticon (ruin the surveillance state - protest the cameras, protest the data centers (also helps the last point), protest the infrastructure that these things rely on)
- Their livelyhood (protest where they live. And there’s plenty to choose from; the shear number of people whose decisions actively fuck your life is astounding)
Just remember: don’t harm anyone or anything. Protest them. Got it? Good.
Joining a union or creating one is one of the most subversive things one can do in this day and age. Propaganda for unions is very effective at leveraging the class schism in favour of workers/socialism.
Just don’t a union that advocates creating large weaponry or represents law enforcement/servants of the state.
Proper unionising makes capitalists piss their pants. I have read a ton about politics (to my detriment – rip mental health) and it seems to really give you the most bang for your buck.
Unions are good, but you also need a political party that can go beyond trade unionism into an all-sided class struggle.
I would tend to agree on the class party aspect, but as with anything there is an outward motion. The most effective struggle doesn’t start at the higher levels of abstraction. Egoism comes first, not in the Stirnerian sense, where people make sure they are not deported by ice, where military service is eschewed, where when arrested the fifth amendment is kept in mind. The next stage would be tenant unions, trade unions, more organised forms of struggle. Then education, reading circles, discussions, talks and so on. I see the party as the capstone of all of these working class interests. Ultimately it becomes the expression of our species’ interest towards the end of class struggle.
Ultimately, without a party, unions retain their present level of struggle. This means they are highly localized around their own interests, and not the interests of the working class as a whole. This is why a party is necessary to begin with, so that unions can be more militant, connected, and disciplined from the beginning. No time is too early for a party.
Where I am from there are like 8 different leftists parties laying claim to the same chunk of people. There will be one big and relevant party in the end, but getting there has the danger of a bajillion parties competing and creating noise rather than directed struggle. XKCD standards meme
Sure, that’s why having a clear and correct party line is important.
bingo
That’s how it’s always been, look at pre-revolutionary russia same there.
I get what you are saying, the Russian revolution was a success despite sharing a feature that was a great hindrance. I think though that saying “X has always been like this” has a somewhat ahistorical quality to it. There is simply no good knowledge of the future.
don’t harm anyone or anything
Okay and when they just decide you are enough of a nuisance that they decide to start killing and disappearing your organizers (which is the stage we have been at for like a century in the US) then what?
Pure nonviolence is a great way to get yourself killed.
Read between the lines man, this is a public forum and the surveillance state is real. There’s obvious sarcasm and word stand-ins. I’m not gonna spell it out for you.
Okay but that last sentence is unnecessary in that case. Just what you posted is enough to have you labeled a terrorist agitator.
It shouldn’t be all that surprising that liberals choose to continue to participate in liberal democracy. It’s their system. They want to see it maintained, they don’t want to see it dismantled or replaced. They like things the way they are, more or less, and they don’t want to see things radically change.
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I don’t want that change either, but I think the right kind of change is not only acceptable, it’s absolutely necessary. I don’t think liberals should be expected to embrace just any change - like change that would make things worse - but they should be open to positive changes, even if those changes seem relatively “radical.”
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Do you think we support either part of the USian uniparty in general?
Yo this meme got people talking 😂😂
Yo OP what is your idea of revolution though?
Is it riots in the streets? Hunting down the elites? Or maybe just voting far left? Please help these liberals figure out how to save this country. No idea is a bad one after all!
Revolution is the overthrow of the old state apparatus and the creation of a new state for the new ruling class, the working class. The tactics of revolution vary depending on the country and conditions, time in the movement, etc, but the overall strategy requires an organized revolutionary class and the replacement of the old state with a new one.
Revolution is the overthrow of one class by another. What occurred in France, Russia, and a number of anti-colonial national liberation struggles throughout the global south for instance. The OP is of course being facetious (can’t blame them, Americans are frustrating in their servitude and passivity despite what’s unfolding), revolution doesn’t occur unless the material conditions are conducive to mass disobedience on that scale. The problem is that liberals are trying to funnel the disillusionment and contain it in hopes of dissipating the revolutionary moment in order to get back to their usual business of putting a human face on America’s domination and hostility in South America, Asia, and Africa as the “Good Cop” to the Republican’s “Bad Cop”.
Revolution is the culmination of the difficult work of building a new society. It is not, as most of us who grew up movie-brained were taught to believe, a call of duty mission
As an immigrant, go fuck yourself.
Please explain.
Being a member of some or other group doesn’t automatically make you right. This is no different to a Republican substituting a coherent political or philosophical argument with “As a straight white Christian male, I have this opinion and you can’t question it”.
This is how Trump got elected a second time.
And for the record, those of you who didn’t vote are the ones truly responsible for this shit. Fuck you and the ivory tower you stand on.
By all means, organize a revolution. But do damage control now and fucking vote instead of letting things get far worse before that can happen
No, it isn’t. Trump got elected the second time because the DNC alienated their traditional voter base by failing to stop supporting genocide and failing to promise necessary change. Leftists protesting did not significantly influence the election, but a failure to galvanize the voterbase did.
Trump got elected again because Dems couldn’t stop alienating demographic groups that have traditionally been strongly democratic in voting patterns. Did you really think it was smart to appeal to neo-cons and alienate centre-left voters?
Schrodinger’s leftist, simultaneously too irrelevant to be worth making any concessions to and also solely responsible for whether the democrats lose the election.
“By all means, build a house. But do damage control and fucking let us burn your lumber for warmth now and continuously into the future, thus ensuring you will never finish the house”
Oh really, so Trump getting elected a second time is the fault of a group with zero political representation in America?
What a dumb fucking take.
Those damn commies ruined everything again.
How dare those commies, who aren’t even part of the Democratic Party’s base, fail the Democrats again?
no, trump got elected precisely because of shits like you. trump exists because bluemaga bullshit keep doing their shit of allowing more and more the right wingers. trump is a direct consequence of the uselessness of the bluemaga fascists. trump exists because the international policy of blue and red maga are fucking indistinguishable. the same fucking policy of killing brown people, of stealing, bullying, mafia behaviour. fucking own your fucking shit. it’s much worse you’re not even owning your shit for people outside your fucking fascist empire, we are the ones that suffer the most. not you inside the empire. fucking stop believing in the fucking fairy tale of voting the fascists out, you aint doin fukcing shit but to continously expect nothing of politicians because “its the most important election of our times” and anything is better than the redmaga. then bluemaga just becomes even more fascist than what it is. then redmaga even more. fucking organize, fucking read marxist literature. fucking stop believing cia propaganda. fucking go fuck yourself.
Erm, @mod, what does one do when a mod breaks rule 1?
Nobody is rebelling. Nobody. Not LIBRULS, not readicals, communists, anarchists, not even fucking nazis, which are just vice-signalling their limp dicks waiting for the result of not even fucking complaining at all. Definitely not OP, who just posts this shit and probably feels smug.
Do you want a revolution? Start it. Do something revolutionary. Risk being put it jail or being killed, which is what happens in revolutions. Or shut the fuck up, because even voting is doing more than nothing.
The only person doing something revolutionary in liberal countries in recent years is Luigi. And he has the balls to admit that he did it. Beyond that, any other protest has been much closer to voting than to an uprising.
The only person doing something revolutionary in liberal countries in recent years is Luigi. And he has the balls to admit that he did it. Beyond that, any other protest has been much closer to voting than to an uprising.
I wouldn’t say he’s the only person, there’s been a lot of scattered protests lately (not counting peaceful marches) and destroying Flock cameras has become a social media trend, but other than that I mostly agree with your point
Adventurism isn’t revolution, it’s a refusal to study theory before taking action. I will never condemn Luigi but to claim his actions were revolutionary fails to explain how they meaningfully gained worker power.
Your vision on revolution is focused on one specific kind. I get why, but I was pointing at all directions, I even pointed out how the stupid nazis are not actually doing anything.
I get the dismissal of single-man action, but that single act changed instantly the approach of that company towards thousands of sick people. Also put other companies on notice. And the whole establishment, for a fraction of a second blinked. The lack of follow-up made it moot.
No power was gained by the working classes. We are not a step further in gaining socialism. The reason there was no follow-up is because it was an adventurist, disorganized act, and organization is fundamental to revolutionary change.
Sure, but that doesn’t detract from the act itself.
How does it not? A random assassination isn’t revolutionary, nor does it advance the worker struggle. Organizing does, it positions us in a better place for revolution.
I am not denying that organization is what allows revolutionary actions to be successful. But they don’t have to be part of organized action to be revolutionary actions. Likewise, the organization itself, though necessary is not revolutionary in itself.
Without revolutionary theory, there can be no revolutionary practice. Random assassinations aren’t revolutionary. Organizing in a revolutionary party is revolutionary because it advances the revolutionary position.
Weeks and decades and all that.
Just going to your local DSA meeting is risking jail at this point or worse.
“Revolutions” aren’t really started by people on the ground, it’s a response to ruling class oppression. All you can really do is organize and hope for the best.
Still, the organization is not in itself (currently) a revolutionary action. Necessary and a step forward, but we still have to recognize that no action at this point is anything beyond preparation.
It’s a worthwhile conversation to have, I agree.
So many people get all ready to take on the system, man, without understanding the infinite hard work of building community.
Fidel started with 12 people. But he had the support of the communities around him. And a murderous regime to oppose.
^fedposting
Adventurism is not revolution.
Nothing happening right now is revolution.
As if you’d know: one post ago you thought Luigi’s adventurism was revolutionary.
Right now, currently. Not a year ago. And if a one man’s action cannot be considered revolutionary, much less whatever OP thinks they are doing. Or you for all that matters.
The point was that you clearly don’t know anything about revolutions
Well then, show me about the revolution you are carrying out right now.
No officer, I don’t think I will.
Groups like the Party for Socialism and Liberation are at the forefront of salient political organizing in the US, and are growing constantly. I think we should join orgs like it and expand the organizing of the working classes.
Revolution has never happened
You might be the only one ever to think that.
No it’s true, no revolution has ever happened and everyone who ever thought they did one was wrong. Nobody is a revolutionary and there is no hope of ever becoming one, leaving us with no path but to do nothing and contribute only hopeless navel gazing. I am a very serious communist.
Strikes have given you basically every working right you currently have, if that’s what doing nothing looks like then I don’t know what to say.
A strike currently is not revolutionary. And still not happening widely anyways.
Strikes are more revolutionary than adventurism, and historically have succeeded far more than simple assassination at getting concessions. They are also practice and discipline for actual revolution.
Sure, they are. But not the ones happening currently. And practice is not the act itself, which is my point. Never said that nothing being done is useful, just that it is not revolutionary. And we shouldn’t think that it is, lest we grow complacent by the level of action.
We need to advance organization, not just commit adventurism.
Never said anything different.
You were praising adventurism as revolutionary.
Striking is the bread and butter of revolutionary activity. The February revolution in Russia was a mass strike that escalated to a point the state could no longer control it. What do you think revolutionary activity looks like?
You are right, people are striking less now than they used to which is a major reason why things are getting worse: cost of living increasing, wages stagnating, the rich getting richer etc.
We need to unite as workers and strike, not vote, for the conditions we deserve.
Of course it is. And that’s what I am pointing at. Any improvements happening right now due to organizing and striking are limited to specific industries and don’t ripple outside of it. For it to be revolutionary, it must be as you say massive, encompassing several/all industries and beyond control. We are so far from that situation, that I cannot accept current moves as revolutionary. Good and necessary, don’t get me wrong, but not revolutionary.
Popular support is needed for a revolution to happen. But striking even on a smaller scale is steel still a very effective way at gaining larger action from the population.
Earlier you said risking being thrown in jail was something revolutionaries should do. What do you mean by that and why would it be more effective than going on strike?
Striking is a magnificent tool.
When I mentioned risking something, what I meant is that when the system notices an existential risk - a revolution - it reacts and goes for the people acting on it, prosecuting or killing them. If the system does not react, it doesn’t recognize the actions as dangerous. Now the system might be slow to react and fail to catch the initial revolutionary steps, that’s also true.
So, if the anti-ICE protests in Minnesota had brought a general strike, even limited to the state, I would have considered that definitely as a significant step. I do think the government would have gone against the organizers, which is what I meant.
All in all, there are many types of protests and actions outside the system that are fantastic and do a lot of good. But a revolution goes much further than that.
risk being locked up revolutionary. lmao bro, you libs don’t even have the slightest idea what the fuck true political organization means. you mfs believe revolution is a one man call of duty mission. the gringo states is truly the most backward brainwashed nation on earth.
What? No revolutionary has ever been locked up?
And political organization is not revolution. It might lead towards it, but it definitely isn’t, so until somebody does start something up, stop deriding others for what you yourself are not doing.
did i say that? no
political organization is way more relevant and actually does something. voting who bourgeois is going to fuck you in the ass with blue or red paint does absolutely nothing but to legitimize your fascist empire.
Still the post talks about revolution and none of those actions are revolutionary. Had it said organize against the current system, it might ring true. And stop pinning things on me you have absolutely no idea about.
who told you we aren’t?
you are the ones who keep complaining when our action inconveniences you in the slightest.
Dude, if your action is an inconvenience, it is not revolutionary.
if my action changes nothing, how do you expect it to change anything??
I don’t.
it shows. it’d be better for everyone if you just got out of the way.
Why, because I don’t expect an action that changes nothing to change anything? You might want to re-read everything.
actions that change stuff will invariably inconvenience you by definition.
This is propaganda meant to discourage voter turnout so the oligarchs can remain in control
The democrats, famously not at all oligarchs or in any way related to Epstein or any other ghoulish shit
Capitalists retain control whether the DNC or GOP is in power, the only thing that changes is which faction of capitalists is currently in charge.
It’s not about the wealthiest 0.5%, the oligarchs as you’d call them. All of this revolves around the struggle against capitalism. Workers (about 60 to 70% of society depending on the definition and employment rates) against the bourgeoisie (~15% including petit bourgeoisie).
Yeah man, the oligarchs really give a shit which of their figureheads you vote for in the elections they control.
Which viable party in the duopoly isn’t controlled by Oligarchs?
you cannot vote someone who isn’t an oligarch my brother. that’s the whole point of bourgeois “”“”“democracy”“”"
This is propaganda that correctly identifies they already are in control and won’t let you vote them away.
Pull your head out of the sand ffs.
I don’t give a fuck if you vote. Commit voter fraud and cast a thousand votes for all I care. Just DO MORE THAN THAT. It IS NOT ENOUGH ON ITS OWN.
Of course they’re also a Russiagate liberal lmao. So which is it @[email protected]? Is voting the most important thing ever or our elections are captured by the Eurasia hordes.
You are so fuckin blinded by your own western chauvinism you can’t even be consistent.
why is it with y’all that something you disagree with is never just a bad take, but always some grand conspiracy?
- i promise you the oligarchs do not give a shit about influencing the 1000 monthly active users on this network
- they’d find it much more fruitful to influence the only opposition party instead, and. okay sit with me for a second. i have some bad news for you.
Because your “bad takes” aren’t just something you individually cooked up in your brain, they are part of the ruling class ideology you are steeped in.
Not if you choose the Democratic socialist that establishment democrats are fighting against
Demsocs are social democrats who still do not understand that you cannot reform capitalism into socialism.
The function of DSA is to capture and dissipate the revolutionary moment, ultimately to maintain the imperial and zionist status quo. The fact that Mamdani hasn’t followed through on any of his supposed “anti-zionism” should be wake up call that there is no salvation to be found in democratic party entryism.
