This edit is really well done.
Because why go for native performance when you can go for minimum effort on all platforms.
When all you have is
a hammerJavaScript, everything looks like anailweb page.Kids these days don’t bother learning languages that actually compile to native apps.
All of my degree was in C, C++, C#, Java, etc. and the one class I had that did web applications did Java backends and middleware with PHP frontends. It wasn’t until I got into the industry that I had to learn Angular, Electron, React, Django, etc.
I don’t think it’s the devs making these decisions.
It’s the minimum effort that translates to minimum time that translates to minimum cost for the business. Why hire another developer for a mobile app (or another platform) when you could just have the same web dev write it. Or without hiring another dev, why have the same dev need to build up tooling in another language when you can just reuse from the existing platform
Exactly, that and the “we are a [insert product name here] shop” mentality. The things I have had to fight for over the years are mind boggling.
Because you want a cross platform solution?
I get that electron can be slow, bloated, etc, but the amount of ire it draws is overboard.
Yes but sometimes, for example core parts of windows 11 like the start menu, don’t need to be cross platform and should be native, not a pwa
Lol I mean I would never use windows 11 or defend that use of it. I’m just saying a valid use of electron is to target multiple platforms with minimal development hurdles.
Especially since they had already native code in previous windows…
Having built applications with Microsoft’s mfc, Java’s swing, the omnipresent Qt, and whatever nastiness Mac was using in the early 00’s, electron is worth the silliness. Trust me. Trust me.
Reminder to talk to your doctor about a colonoscopy
Because different OSes follow different Human Interaction Guidelines and I expect that applications follow the native look and feel.
following every linux de/wm’s interaction guidelines seems pretty hard
Ok, seems like a separate issue. The question was why do this and I gave an answer. Doesn’t mean it’s wrong because you can find a reason not to do it.
Why have a consistent Wayland experience when each application can run it’s own Electron version with varying degrees of enforced Wayland flags, and/or such an outdated Chromium version Wayland is just jank.
Edit:
Was trying to say that most of these CEF/Electron applications all need their own separate Wayland specific (Chromium) flags to have better Wayland support/integration. And the older Electron applications typically use an older Chromium as base, having even worse Wayland support… Was not trying to make this a “Wayland bad!” kind of post.
TL;DR: Electron applications have wildly varying level of Wayland support/integration, don’t have any Wayland issues other than specific CEF/Electron apps!
Wayland isn’t the problem. Chrome just doesn’t behave well with it. I haven’t had any Wayland-related issues with Firefox.
Yeah, maybe it was just badly worded by me…
most (if not all) Wayland issues I currently have are related to Chromium, and especially CEF/Electron applications that are based on older Chromium versions. Weren’t trying to say that this is an inherent Wayland issue, considering most of the applications works as expected.
Ah I see. I understand now! I thought you may have been one of the people that is still saying X11 is superior, even though Wayland is very usable now.
Ive been hitting weird issues in Chrome too, and had to disable GPU compositing to fix them. Unfortunately I have to use Chrome at work - we’re not allowed to use other browsers, as only Chrome has the endpoint security functionality they require (provided by Chrome Enterprise Premium). No other browsers have or can provide the same features.
GPU composting
That might be the problem.
Oops. Fixed!
Always that reflex against Wayland - as someone who has switched to Linux not so long ago i have a hard time with the mindset long time Linux users have against Wayland. I understand that it might be annoying if someone is used to his X-Server and that some tools that people are used to for a decade will get left behind. But as a new user I do not have anything negative to say about Wayland. It behaves nicely with my multi-monitor setup and VRR, has no issues with my Nvidia graphics card, and Xwayland covers tools that can’t or won’t migrate. Using Pipewire allows Steam Remote Play. In the year or so since i switched to Linux, the stability has changed from “it’s ok, but annoys me sometimes” to “rock-solid”.
Y’all have to recognize that there is a new generation of Linux Users around, which does not have nostalgic feelings towards X, and for those Wayland is simply the normal way things run. Whining will not change that.
The Wayland debate is the same as the systemd debate of 2015 minus the death threats.
Very much pro-Wayland in my case.
Just saying that certain CEF/Electron apps (especially those running on older Chromium version) are what is causing certain Wayland specific issues, hence my issue is on the application side (Steam, Spotify etc.), not on Wayland’s side… My bad for the badly worded post which made it seem like the classical “Wayland bad!” posts.
I haven’t touched X11/Xorg in years, nor am I planning on reverting back to it anytime.
I misread that, but it seems i am not the only one :-) We can agree on Electron being a lazy way of providing a program - I’ll excuse it if it’s a small game from a single dev, but everyone else should do it the right way.
Overall a fair assessment! 🤝
I think you’re missing the point. What you said is a problem for sure, but that problem isn’t related to what we are talking about here.
I know it’s easy to dunk on Electron… but have any of yall written any desktop apps with native frameworks? I wrote a small GTK4+Vala app once and I discovered desktop frameworks are very different than developing webapps. Customizing the look, feel, interaction of elements, and general mechanics, seems like a toooon of effort. (It kinda seems like you’re not supposed to customize it.) Web development is waaaaaaaay more friendly towards customization. Which as a company, you want your app to look like your company, not some generic OS bundled app.
And then you have to repeat all that effort for crappleOS and Wangblows?.. And then you gotta hope that it’s even possible to do the thing you want in different OSes. Sheesh.
I mean, I’d be happy if everything was native apps, but I also understand why people don’t tend to choose that route.
GTK is so shitty to use that they created Vala to make it usable.
it kinda seems you’re not supposed to customize it
This is usually a good thing. More recent native frameworks like Qt QML do work more or less like designing web apps though, if that is what you want to. Qt Widgets itself provides a uniform look on platforms.
And vaguely related: Sciter, a little known but widely used framework that is a few megabytes and is similar to electron for design but very lightweight. Far older than it, too.
Which as a company, you want your app to look like your company, not some generic OS bundled app
Consistency of UI used to be treasured.
Once upon a time, we differentiated our apps based on their capabilities and gave them a consistent interface so people who knew how to use Windows|Linux|MacOS apps would already be familiar with how they operated. Now we differentiate on looks/user experience, and many of them arent capable at all.
People took the wrong lessons from beautiful GUI design. Anyone who felt it was just aesthetics missed the point. It wasn’t just flashy UI on what boils down to a database.
That’s kind of the point of the frameworks though? Electron apps suck not only because of resource footprint, they don’t look and feel native, if they have any accessibility it’s usually custom and different for every program. Too much customization is bad.
I remember the times before UI toolkits took over. These programs had soul and were beautiful in their own way, but you had to learn how UI elements worked in each of them separately. The same thing happens with web apps now. Tab and the other usual keyboard shortcuts rarely work, controls are all custom.
100%, but man these are making me nostalgic.
Then I have a read for you this Sunday: https://www.datagubbe.se/utildisks/
X-Copy with 81 sectors?! What kind of madness is that?
Dated 1993, so probably it deals with some advanced copy protection from impossible sectors? Idk
Customizing the look, feel, interaction of elements, and general mechanics, seems like a toooon of effort. (It kinda seems like you’re not supposed to customize it.)
Holy shit, he figured it out!
So yeah, it turns out that platform human interface guidelines are a thing, and for good reason.
Sorry but the window real estate of an application isn’t meant for branding and advertisement. For that you have splash screens and the about dialogue, or even the help pages. And for more branding your webpage.
Everyone should have to make one native app before being allowed to make fun of electron/webviews.
Counterpoint: Every developer should have to test their app on a machine with 1 GB of RAM and a dialup modem before inflicting their bloat on the rest of the world.
I just tried doing some work on a convention center WiFi connection in a small town. And it was clear the software I was using had no concept of slow internet. No progress bars on downloads, no resuming when connections dropped.
Everything just assumes max performance and fast network.
works on my machine
I agree with this as well. There is some genuinely good electron apps which aren’t a massive bloated pile of shit.
Thank the makers that we have gui builders on most languages for most platforms, so all you need to do is wire up the controls with your backend :)
I get that it sucks. Are there any alternatives, where I have one codebase for all platforms?
Flutter
Have you heard of Java? Or any other language that abstracts away the GUI gluecode. Or don’t just even go electron and provide a web app instead.
Java 😂
Java apps are even worse than electron. Not to mention you need to install Java to run them.
Because Java totally doesn’t exist for every platform ever
Mhm… Install 300mb once to run any Java application or 300mb for each and every electron app.
Its an easy choice.
I heard Java can compile down to native binaries now. I interviewed someone that told me, I haven’t written a line of Java in 15 years.
Tauri is one I’m aware of.
The whiners won’t answer
Lol, this is funny
