But you’ll need a powerful system with 64GB of RAM to use it.
Microslop thinks that “Clutter free” means “bundled with an always on LLM” 😸
lol no that won’t happen
Is this their follow up to the wildly successful Project Test Everything In Production?
They never stopped that one, actually
Fool me once… maybe we can try to fool them for the hundredth time.
If it was “clutter free”, it would not need 64GB. It might even work with 4GB or less.
the gui is clutter free. why do you think it takes over a minute for windows to show the drop down right click menu.
“Our new product is our old product with fewer kicks in the face.”
If they actually cut the bloat and had a bare bones system it would be a half decent OS. It would be able to get away with less ram and faster response. The only issue is that would not look good for there stock value.
Modern windows 2000 please.
While we’re at it, a real CLI, please. Running a full GUI and popping up a Power Shell window doesn’t count.
I don’t understand, do you not like Windows Terminal? I have found it to be one of the better parts of Windows 11. It isn’t perfect, but miles better than cmd.
they probably don’t like having to run a full gui for basic text commands control
Yeah, I was referring to Windows Server Core. They had an opportunity to implement a proper CLI and marketed it that way. Instead it still runs the full GUI, but just sets cmd.exe as the shell instead of explorer.exe
I’m sure the event viewer, resource monitor, etc will support hidpi with this right and it’s not just gonna be another Ui layer painted on top of all the old ones like a shitty apartment where you can cut the wall and count the layers of paint
Zero details about what clutter they’re going to remove…
Given the memory requirement, my guess is that they’re not removing anything, just hiding it. And adding more useless crap on top.
The users.
You had me for the first half
Why doesn’t Microsoft just use AI to fix their shit products? I thought AI was the future and Microsoft is OpenAI’s largest shareholder so this should be a slam dunk.
The goal, really, is to cut the crud out of Windows to create a more Linux-like experience.
but
for powerful developer hardware with 64GB of RAM and gobs of memory bandwidth.
???
If their idea of distraction-free requires 64GB of RAM, they’re pretty lost as a company.
640K ought to be enough for anyone
Why do developers need 64GB+ RAM on their computers? Maybe I’m biased as a Ruby on Rails web application developer but I’m happily squeaking by on just 8GB RAM. Maybe they’re developing with the memory-hungry VS Code?
I thought it was the gamers who needed tons of RAM.
I build windows software, so need Windows and VS. I keep my entire development environment in a virtual machine. I also have a couple of other VMs for client isolation, clean installation testing, etc.
So having that much memory allows me to run more than one virtual machine at a time, and keep enough reserve for my actual desktop.
It was also my first rebuild in over 12 years, and RAM prices hadn’t gone stupid yet, so I figured I’d drop a few more $ and build another decade+ future proof machine.
Its AI.
8 GB woyldn’t be nearly enough to run a large enterprise server while also running all my other apps in the background. At work I use a MacBook with 48 GB of RAM and the memory pressure regularly goes into yellow.
I develop in containers, which means I don’t have to install dependencies on my host.
While it’s overhead, it’s never that massive.
Sure things like Codium and all the tooling takes up a lot of memory… I don’t think I’ve seen over 10gb of “dev related” memory.
I feel like people are significantly desensitized about how much data 1GB actually is.Visual Studio, VS Code, WSL2, docker containers, SQL Server + SSMS, MS Teams, …
Usually all at the same time. Not everyone is doing just web dev.
Oh my god. Do people really live like this? I’m going to be sick…
Teams, Visual Studio, VS Code are trash, they leak memory like no other
WSL2 is hilarious, just run Linux/UNIX?
SQL Server and SSMS are trash
I run Docker quite a bit but if you’re actually writing the containers efficiently it shouldn’t be sucking down ~64GB of RAM. But I’ve also seen how people shovel things like Java, log rotation, etc. into those containers because they act like it’s a 1994 VPS.
This is on my work PC, I can’t just switch there (:
For .NET development Visual Studio and Rider are the only decent options, everything else is “trash”. Teams is the company communication tool (besides Outlook).
And we run SQL Servers in Azure, PostgreSQL would cost the same (but I’d love to switch to it myself).
You don’t need 64 GB of RAM, I was happy with 48 GB too, but the headroom is nice. 32 GB would be borderline for my work though, especially as I often have two heavy backend services open (2x Visual Studio) plus a Python project for automated tests (VS Code).
Just don’t use Teams. There’s Zulip, Mattermost, Rocket.Chat, even Matrix and XMPP.
People don’t choose Teams, it’s forced on them by executives that rather save a little licensing money rather than have an effective communication tool. The entire MS stack is basically kept alive by convincing corporations to shove it down the throats of their employees. The only people I ever hear say anything nice about MS products are system admins that like the centralized way you can lock down and micromanage Windows instances.
Literally Zulip, Rocket.Chat, Mattermost and Matrix are cheaper than Teams lmao.
And are totally free if you self-host.
VS has an option that I think was called Launch With, or something like that, so you can run two services together.
Aspire also let’s you do this more easily.
I got the same impression. That dev work isn’t power hungry, just the stack is. But if IT controls the stack, that explains some of the dilemma.
Why an RDBMS on the local though? Testing shit doesn’t make sense to name it as a regular piece of software.
When you work on backend services you have a local DB running 24/7. Changes don’t go onto the actual dev environment until locally tested, or you might just break things for 50 other people.
Why an RDBMS on the local though? Testing shit doesn’t make sense to name it as a regular piece of software.
I always build against a local DB?
For our desktop / LAN software the DB will always be local.
For web, it’s easier since I’m likely to burn the DB down over and over during early development / prototyping. But I’m not using cloud hosted DB even in production, and don’t expose Postgres outside the DB server, so I find it easier to work on this way.
EDIT: I also think that a default installation of VS includes SQL Server. I don’t use it, so always have to adjust the installation and remove all of those bits, but I also have complete control of my environment. I could see an IT department just doing a stock VS installation with the required workloads.
Yeah sorry, that’s what I meant by testing stuff. I suppose if you’re always testing things in the DB, it makes sense. Usually in my case, I would spin up a Postgres instance only for the week or so that I’m developing and testing with it. Eventually I push to cloud though. I don’t keep it running locally unless I’m testing a change. But I’m not testing changes often… I wouldn’t consider it part of my stack for that reason. I might run a local RDBMS a few times a year.
On the other hand, I will use SQLite or DuckDB all the time for local work. Not sure if those count as RDBMS, they are serverless.
I won’t never consider a local RDBMS as having stable data storage, so it falls into a strictly “testing” category for me, I guess “development and testing” is more accurate.
I could totally see that for the web stuff where I only make changes a couple of times a year. Usually when working on those I just delete the local DB before I start to keep it clean, but spinning up a new copy would be more efficient.
For our desktop apps / server Postgres is always installed locally on the machine, so keeping it there mirrors “production”.
I spent most of my time working on those apps and services, or working on the Android client (or both at the same time when a feature requires that both change), and often on a copy of actual customer data as we do a lot of custom work for clients.
Yeah, that’s exactly the process- while you are building out a feature it hits a local DB and once it’s ready to integrate you push it to a shared environment.
If you break dev, coworkers be mad
run Docker quite a bit but if you’re actually writing the containers efficiently it shouldn’t be sucking down ~64GB of RAM
In Windows when you run a docker container a full Linux VM is run, so it uses gigabytes of memory
Not everyone does the same development process as you.
And I’m sure we all work at places that allow us to change the entire tech stack and switch away from teams /s
Be realistic, there are many reasons you need all of these things and more. Why are you trashing other people so much?
Sometimes you use big datasets. I needed 64GB (well, I only needed more than 32 to be fair, but 5-6 years ago it wasn’t that expensive) to figure out a bug in data going over 32bits number of indices on a gpu.
But usually 32GB has been largely enough for most stuff, I even only have 16 on my laptop but I don’t do large stuff any more.
I do use quite a bit, but I also do a lot of different things. Compiling code, running docker containers, local web servers, an android emulator, slack, browser tabs for Jira/confluence/figma/etc., all adds up pretty quick.
8GB is definitely nowhere near enough, at least for what I need to do.
I’ve worked on large C++ applications and it’s worth having a beefy machine. Each source file can be compiled in parallel so you save time by having a ton of CPU cores and memory.
Yeah for most projects the only time you need a workstation-class machine is to cut down on compile times. Every time you make a change and run you have to compile; a process you do possibly hundreds of times per day benefits immensely from even being just 1-2 seconds faster
It’s also useful if you have a lot of unit tests that can be run in parallel.
Java dev in charge of a $100M product here. Can’t actually compile it with less than 32 GB of RAM.
My old job working with a hydraulic analysis firm, needed 256 GB to run the product it in local development mode; to run customer models in production was a mainframe job - typically multi-terabytes. Computational fluid dynamics eats all your memory and asks for more. My work computer would have been pretty shitty as a gaming desktop, but did have every memory slot maxed out.
Yes, you might be working on something more lightweight, and that is fine. That doesn’t mean that your requirements are the be all and end all.
They probably try to keep the normal users out, so that their
spy-ware infestednormal version is still the default for most of the users.Either that or they didn’t remove the crud but replaced it with AI crud that needs the RAM.
I don’t get it either.
If they said “requires a beefy dGPU or one of the handful of high-bandwidth APUs” that feels like it would make more sense than just 64G RAM. I thought most models weren’t optimized to run on a CPU even with gobs of RAM.
And plenty of firms don’t ship their devs 64G machines, especially in ghe current RAM crunch. Mine sent me a 16G machine in like 2023 and only replaced it with 32 on request because Win11+Docker were heavier than the old Win10/external server workflow.
A developer who needs windows, for whatever reason ever, is going to be able to pull of and setup most of these system settings and apps in under an hour.
Then on the other hand, I downloaded, installed and base configured my new laptop with linux while commuting for one hour on the train. lol
You believed Microslop once, that’s on them. You believed Microslop twice, that’s on you.
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Don’t be so mean. You can do many useful things on windows. Like for example selecting Linux distro, downloading it and saving on an USB.
And you can use its image creation tool to write a Windows installer .iso to a thumbdrive, for others who absolutely have to have it!
Fucked if I can work out why downloading the Windows .iso in Linux and writing it to USB has not once resulted in a bootable medium for me, despite literally every non-MS .iso working perfectly with the same tools.
Lol I just found my burned CD-ROM of windows 10. I seem to remember asking on reddit how I can get a disk copy when they were offering a free upgrade from windows 7 to windows 10. Everyone clowned on me and downvoted and saying I was ridiculous for asking such a thing. Looks like I figured it out somehow.
Is asking for a physical copy such a ridiculous request lol? It gives me peace of mind that I can reinstall whenever.
Whatever, I’ve since moved onto Linux only for the last 5 years or so. The days of dual booting are long behind me. Funny enough in that pile of CD-ROMs was Ubuntu 10.04, the first distro I ever used. I remember doing a bunch of convoluted bullshit to get Oblivion to run on WINE haha.
Like for example selecting Linux distro, downloading it and saving on an USB.
Using an USB thing is the somewhat decadent newfangled way to do things. The more classy way was to download the whole distro to an 1.44 MB floppy drive. \installation was by
dd .... of=/dev/fd0. It was possible to boot it on an 386 PC. Though kernel compiles were a bit lengthy.Why not just PXE boot it over the token ring network?
Didn’t have a network card.
Gotta test it out after the upgrade to 10Mb/s Ethernet!
Whoah! Did you build the new kernel for it? This UDP stuff is crazy.
I hope everyone uses this new UDP thing!
Heh, I remember another distro called Floppix — small enough to fix on two floppy disks
There is also Knoppix, designed for rescue purposes.
That’s more fun on Linux though.
Don’t be so mean? Sometimes I use Edge to download a new browser then uninstall Windows.
