When I “request” time off, it’s not a request. It’s a notification. I will be gone. The work needed to be done is done or will be done by the deadlines. Any emergencies that arise in the meantime will be dealt with when I’m back. If my request is denied, that’s not my problem, I will still be gone.
Exactly. If I give you sufficient notice, 2 weeks is probably a good minimum, and no one else is taking off at that time, that’s a you problem if you can’t cover it. If your team is not structured such that you can honor PTO with sufficient notice, you are not offering PTO. You are lying about benefits.
Is was a manager of a help desk for a while and dealing with PTO shit was one of the main reasons I quit. We had 60 people working which was already insufficient to handle our call volume and they only allotted 2-3 slots on weekdays for PTO. We pretty much always had one or two people out for medical shit so in reality there was maybe one slot per day which basically made it impossible to get an actual vacation approved. On top of that it was hard to get OT approved so I couldn’t get someone else to cover it. I used to remind my people that consecutive absences only counted as one point on their attendance when I was telling them I couldn’t approve their requests. We ended up even more short staffed by people just going anyway then we’d have our executives barking at us about why we couldn’t meet the metrics they set. I built a report that showed how many people we would actually need to staff ourselves properly, even though we had a person whose job it was to do scheduling who should have been doing it, but when I presented it I was more or less ignored because it didn’t fit the narrative they were spinning to their bosses.
Yeah, I’ve worked places where I could tell exactly how many more man hours we were short, and I knew the managers were doing it deliberately for a bonus. It’s not for the workers, it’s not for the customers, it’s for shareholders.
As an employer (and thus an evil capitalist pigdog etc.) I’ve always applied the rule of the thumb that “twice the holiday duration as notice” is polite to the employer and your colleagues who will cover for you - so two days notice for a day off, two weeks notice for a week off, a month’s notice for two weeks off, etc.
“Polite” does not mean “mandatory” of course - circumstances can dictate that sometimes you have to break the rule of thumb and that’s fine.
Up to two weeks it makes sense, over 2 weeks it’s a disaster waiting to happen. Unless you have a really well organized boss or some software to help you out, they will forget and no matter if you have written proof you will appear as the one who left despite everything or you will have to fight for it or cancel because you reminded them just before leaving.
I’m lucky I’m in the EU so we have mandatory vacations
Yeah that’s my approach too. If I want to be available then I will be, but if I’m off, I’m off, the pto is my right to turn off work and do “me” for the day.
You will also be without a job. Requests can be honored if they are timely and follow the rules but everyone can’t be off before forth of July or Christmas. There’s usually a process to be fair to others and the business.
Where I live national holidays and Sunday are time off for almost everyone, and Saturdays are usually half-days. Yes, that means almost all stores and businesses are closed. If a business wants people to work then for one reason or another (emergency services, public transit operators, entertainment, food service, hotel staff etc) it is paid as overtime, which generally means about 1.5x the rate. If I could work for 1.5x my rate I’d probably be incentivized to not take the day off, which is exactly how this should work.
Denying people PTO is anti-labor and you frankly should be ashamed to be peddling such bullshit here.
I am not peddling that at all. You are not reading critically. I manage a crew of people that have a CBA with allocated PTO. They know their limitations and there is almost never a conflict because I manage those shortages and still fulfill what our tasks are.
However, the discussion is “I should be able to take whatever day I want whenever I want”. I do not think that is a professional attitude or a team attitude. Full stop. There is nothing more to that other than I see it as a roadblock for promotion and that attitude does not last long where I am from. This is also not the first company I have worked for in this industry. I was a front like worker for 9 years before becoming management.
I should be able to take whatever day I want whenever I want
Yes, workers should be able to take whatever day off they want. If a manager is incapable of managing that through extra staffing and incentives, that’s a manager’s problem. “Professional attitude”, “team attitude” is literally manipulative corporate speak designed to get workers to forfeit their rights for no benefit of their own.
that attitude does not last long where I am from.
That means you are from a shitty place for workers, and trying to push that shitty attitude on others. That’s all.
If you want to be able to take off whatever day you want, surely you should also expect to be paid less because there has to be an extra employee on payroll that comes in with near-zero notice whenever you text “not coming in” in the morning?
Attention readers: before you make the mistake of digging through this thread, recognize that this poster is literally some shitty small manager of like 30 employees. Yet they talk like some deranged billionaire. Hysterical.
They need me more than I need them. I put in a little extra time here and there. I roll with management’s last minute emergencies that arise from their lack of planning and communication, and I course correct with knowledge of real world logistics that they never think of, saving their bacon and making them look better than they should. I am flexible and agreeable and get my work done regularly and efficiently.
If they fire me I’ll happily collect unemployment and watch them implode.
“There is an order to the world” is a phrase uttered only by those enjoying the current order as applicable to them, to someone whom they clearly see is not enjoying the same. It is the taunt of tyrants, slavers, bigots, strike-breakers, fascists, and genocidal maniacs the world over.
Order alone is not an axiomatic good, and anyone who treats it like it is inherently worth protecting, or like an orderly system is an invalid target for criticism solely for being orderly, is either naïve or is experiencing an unbalanced “order” in their favour. I’ll let other readers decide which they think you are.
What a sad projection of your own hollowness of self, to say that the very idea of changing corrupt systems of exploitation is synonymous with being incapable of critical thought. I hope you find something to fill that gaping hole in your selfhood.
We may all be nothing but drops in an ocean, but what is any ocean but a multitude of drops? To dare liken the idea of taking a day off of work to turning the sky green is so pitiful, so utterly incomprehensible a strawman, that it can only have come from someone who is, themself, forcibly repressing their own higher thoughts.
Please consider your positions (for it is clear that no consideration has occurred thus far).
wooow youre only exploiting people slightly less than you could be? color me impressed. and benefits day one? how generous of you not forcing people to wait for health care that they may require to continue living. like i said, fuck the company.
Ooooh. Were you giving benefits before you thought of applying? What kind of criticism is that? And it’s exploitation compensating people more than they will get somewhere else? Did you consider this criticism before typing it?
Does no one on Lemmy work? Is it a bunch of neck beards in their parent’s basements? When does showing up for work become a human centipede? Absolutely dumb analogy.
I’m kinda shocked how you’ve been using this forum semi-actively for 3 years and are just now realizing something about how the company around is very socialist and anti-capitalist.
Any opinion ideologically right of soc-dem is gonna be heavily criticized all around, and that corner over there straight up thinks even social-democrats are authoritarian-complacent.
I don’t find that as a professional attitude. It is not a team attitude as well. I understand there are certain events that cannot be missed and I would work with my employees to accommodate.
However, that attitude never lasts. Anywhere I have ever managed or been an employee. It is a roadblock to promotion or worse. And you can have the attitude “that’s not my problem”. But remember that next time you have an issue you bring to your boss and they say “it’s not my problem”. They are people too that report to supervisors.
I don’t find that as a professional attitude. It is not a team attitude as well.
Oh my fucking god, go play in traffic or something! Nobody respects this fucking dreck.
I don’t request time off, I give notice that I won’t be there. End of. If it were my job to figure out who’s gonna cover my shifts, then I need to be paid more.
Then you’re a crap employee and you wouldn’t be welcome on our team. We like adults working with us that bring actual conversations that help do what we do.
We do in fact play in traffic. We are literally professionals at it. It’s so heartwarming that you care so much.
You know what a professional attitude would be? Organising your team in a way that doesn’t make everything fall apart because of one person being unavailable.
My team does not. But that’s because I am the one that organized it and has redundancies. However I realize normally businesses do not have that luxury.
Wow. You sound really jaded. That cooperative work equates to some kind of negative. In fact you sound like a teenager that has not fully formed their emotions. I’m telling you how it comes off and what are the consequences from an upper management perspective. Since I sit in on meetings from a multi-billion company with them, maybe hear it out. Or don’t. It’s really up to you if you think I’m out to get you from telling you what happens in today’s business world.
Do I wish we could all take every single day we want and not work 50 hours a week and do what my boss says? Yes. But I am not more in control of those strings than anyone else here and just play the game just like everyone else.
The sad part you don’t seem to understand is that you and people like you are the problem. Those insisting on taking days of are fighting for worker rights most of the world already has, the reason the US doesn’t is that there are to many people who betray their colleges like you do
Yup. I’m totally holding up the whole infrastructure of work. It was my idea to work and not have a working system. Hit that nail on the head. Thanks for looking deeper into my soul and giving me insight.
Buddy, the world isn’t resting on your shoulders. You’re just as replaceable as everybody else is. If you didn’t show up, they’d recover faster than you’d think. In a week they’d forget you were ever there. It’s a job, even if you were half as critical as you let yourself believe, your superiors certainly don’t believe it, and will cut you loose as soon as the number under your name goes from black to red.
It’s your bosses obligation to make sure there are enough people to cover the shifts not yours, if you except being exploited or even defend it than yes you are holding up everyone else.
When I “request” time off, it’s not a request. It’s a notification. I will be gone. The work needed to be done is done or will be done by the deadlines. Any emergencies that arise in the meantime will be dealt with when I’m back. If my request is denied, that’s not my problem, I will still be gone.
Exactly. If I give you sufficient notice, 2 weeks is probably a good minimum, and no one else is taking off at that time, that’s a you problem if you can’t cover it. If your team is not structured such that you can honor PTO with sufficient notice, you are not offering PTO. You are lying about benefits.
Is was a manager of a help desk for a while and dealing with PTO shit was one of the main reasons I quit. We had 60 people working which was already insufficient to handle our call volume and they only allotted 2-3 slots on weekdays for PTO. We pretty much always had one or two people out for medical shit so in reality there was maybe one slot per day which basically made it impossible to get an actual vacation approved. On top of that it was hard to get OT approved so I couldn’t get someone else to cover it. I used to remind my people that consecutive absences only counted as one point on their attendance when I was telling them I couldn’t approve their requests. We ended up even more short staffed by people just going anyway then we’d have our executives barking at us about why we couldn’t meet the metrics they set. I built a report that showed how many people we would actually need to staff ourselves properly, even though we had a person whose job it was to do scheduling who should have been doing it, but when I presented it I was more or less ignored because it didn’t fit the narrative they were spinning to their bosses.
Yeah, I’ve worked places where I could tell exactly how many more man hours we were short, and I knew the managers were doing it deliberately for a bonus. It’s not for the workers, it’s not for the customers, it’s for shareholders.
As an employer (and thus an evil capitalist pigdog etc.) I’ve always applied the rule of the thumb that “twice the holiday duration as notice” is polite to the employer and your colleagues who will cover for you - so two days notice for a day off, two weeks notice for a week off, a month’s notice for two weeks off, etc.
“Polite” does not mean “mandatory” of course - circumstances can dictate that sometimes you have to break the rule of thumb and that’s fine.
Up to two weeks it makes sense, over 2 weeks it’s a disaster waiting to happen. Unless you have a really well organized boss or some software to help you out, they will forget and no matter if you have written proof you will appear as the one who left despite everything or you will have to fight for it or cancel because you reminded them just before leaving. I’m lucky I’m in the EU so we have mandatory vacations
Is “owning a calendar” really the bar we’re setting for being really well organized these days?
Yeah that’s my approach too. If I want to be available then I will be, but if I’m off, I’m off, the pto is my right to turn off work and do “me” for the day.
You will also be without a job. Requests can be honored if they are timely and follow the rules but everyone can’t be off before forth of July or Christmas. There’s usually a process to be fair to others and the business.
nope. start this way and tell others. policy does not outrank labor law. pto is pto.
Where I live national holidays and Sunday are time off for almost everyone, and Saturdays are usually half-days. Yes, that means almost all stores and businesses are closed. If a business wants people to work then for one reason or another (emergency services, public transit operators, entertainment, food service, hotel staff etc) it is paid as overtime, which generally means about 1.5x the rate. If I could work for 1.5x my rate I’d probably be incentivized to not take the day off, which is exactly how this should work.
Denying people PTO is anti-labor and you frankly should be ashamed to be peddling such bullshit here.
I am not peddling that at all. You are not reading critically. I manage a crew of people that have a CBA with allocated PTO. They know their limitations and there is almost never a conflict because I manage those shortages and still fulfill what our tasks are.
However, the discussion is “I should be able to take whatever day I want whenever I want”. I do not think that is a professional attitude or a team attitude. Full stop. There is nothing more to that other than I see it as a roadblock for promotion and that attitude does not last long where I am from. This is also not the first company I have worked for in this industry. I was a front like worker for 9 years before becoming management.
Yes, workers should be able to take whatever day off they want. If a manager is incapable of managing that through extra staffing and incentives, that’s a manager’s problem. “Professional attitude”, “team attitude” is literally manipulative corporate speak designed to get workers to forfeit their rights for no benefit of their own.
That means you are from a shitty place for workers, and trying to push that shitty attitude on others. That’s all.
If you want to be able to take off whatever day you want, surely you should also expect to be paid less because there has to be an extra employee on payroll that comes in with near-zero notice whenever you text “not coming in” in the morning?
Attention readers: before you make the mistake of digging through this thread, recognize that this poster is literally some shitty small manager of like 30 employees. Yet they talk like some deranged billionaire. Hysterical.
cosplay capitalists gonna cosplay.
Psycho. Going through posting history? Blocked.
30 employees is above average
Why not? I’d argue most work isn’t so important it absolutely must be done on Christmas.
What we do saves lives
You run a hospital? An ambulance/paramedic service? A veterinary surgery? A live tissue courier service?
I will not discuss specifics. However you’re in the neighborhood.
They need me more than I need them. I put in a little extra time here and there. I roll with management’s last minute emergencies that arise from their lack of planning and communication, and I course correct with knowledge of real world logistics that they never think of, saving their bacon and making them look better than they should. I am flexible and agreeable and get my work done regularly and efficiently.
If they fire me I’ll happily collect unemployment and watch them implode.
fuck the business. they want fair treatment they can provide fair compensation.
Well we offer above market compensation. As well as benefits day one. So we are kind of that company.
Like not being allowed to take time off?
I never said you never got time off. There is just an order to things.
“There is an order to the world” is a phrase uttered only by those enjoying the current order as applicable to them, to someone whom they clearly see is not enjoying the same. It is the taunt of tyrants, slavers, bigots, strike-breakers, fascists, and genocidal maniacs the world over.
Order alone is not an axiomatic good, and anyone who treats it like it is inherently worth protecting, or like an orderly system is an invalid target for criticism solely for being orderly, is either naïve or is experiencing an unbalanced “order” in their favour. I’ll let other readers decide which they think you are.
Absolutely an NPC comment. Go ahead. Change the sky to green to show you “can change into whatever”. No awareness.
What a sad projection of your own hollowness of self, to say that the very idea of changing corrupt systems of exploitation is synonymous with being incapable of critical thought. I hope you find something to fill that gaping hole in your selfhood.
We may all be nothing but drops in an ocean, but what is any ocean but a multitude of drops? To dare liken the idea of taking a day off of work to turning the sky green is so pitiful, so utterly incomprehensible a strawman, that it can only have come from someone who is, themself, forcibly repressing their own higher thoughts.
Please consider your positions (for it is clear that no consideration has occurred thus far).
wooow youre only exploiting people slightly less than you could be? color me impressed. and benefits day one? how generous of you not forcing people to wait for health care that they may require to continue living. like i said, fuck the company.
Ooooh. Were you giving benefits before you thought of applying? What kind of criticism is that? And it’s exploitation compensating people more than they will get somewhere else? Did you consider this criticism before typing it?
I imagine this person thinks you’re boasting being #2 on the human centipede proud to not be #3 or #4. You’re eating shit either way.
Does no one on Lemmy work? Is it a bunch of neck beards in their parent’s basements? When does showing up for work become a human centipede? Absolutely dumb analogy.
I’m kinda shocked how you’ve been using this forum semi-actively for 3 years and are just now realizing something about how the company around is very socialist and anti-capitalist.
Any opinion ideologically right of soc-dem is gonna be heavily criticized all around, and that corner over there straight up thinks even social-democrats are authoritarian-complacent.
I too write in the notes “this is a notification, not a request”. It obviously depends on the type of job you have but I’ve never gotten flak for it.
Then I guess they’ll have to find someone to cover when I’m gone. either way, it’s a notice not a request.
I don’t find that as a professional attitude. It is not a team attitude as well. I understand there are certain events that cannot be missed and I would work with my employees to accommodate.
However, that attitude never lasts. Anywhere I have ever managed or been an employee. It is a roadblock to promotion or worse. And you can have the attitude “that’s not my problem”. But remember that next time you have an issue you bring to your boss and they say “it’s not my problem”. They are people too that report to supervisors.
Oh my fucking god, go play in traffic or something! Nobody respects this fucking dreck.
I don’t request time off, I give notice that I won’t be there. End of. If it were my job to figure out who’s gonna cover my shifts, then I need to be paid more.
Then you’re a crap employee and you wouldn’t be welcome on our team. We like adults working with us that bring actual conversations that help do what we do.
We do in fact play in traffic. We are literally professionals at it. It’s so heartwarming that you care so much.
You know what a professional attitude would be? Organising your team in a way that doesn’t make everything fall apart because of one person being unavailable.
My team does not. But that’s because I am the one that organized it and has redundancies. However I realize normally businesses do not have that luxury.
It’s not a luxury, it’s a basic prerequisite. What you call normal is a failure.
Well I’m not in charge of them. I wish you the best in finding a leader that helps with your schedule.
Let me make something extremely fucking clear.
There are plenty of places to get a paycheck.
Time with my family is irreplaceable. We’re only on the same team as long as you understand that you will never be as important as home life.
Go ahead. That sounds like a threat and I wouldn’t trust you. My boss wouldn’t trust you either. Go find that other job. I’m not your mother.
Who gives an actual fuck what your boss thinks?
You speak like someone who has been beaten down so much that lifting your head up seems like treachery to you.
If your work is important to you, good for you, but your boss is not thinking about you when you aren’t around.
Grow up and join the real world.
Wow. You sound really jaded. That cooperative work equates to some kind of negative. In fact you sound like a teenager that has not fully formed their emotions. I’m telling you how it comes off and what are the consequences from an upper management perspective. Since I sit in on meetings from a multi-billion company with them, maybe hear it out. Or don’t. It’s really up to you if you think I’m out to get you from telling you what happens in today’s business world.
Do I wish we could all take every single day we want and not work 50 hours a week and do what my boss says? Yes. But I am not more in control of those strings than anyone else here and just play the game just like everyone else.
The sad part you don’t seem to understand is that you and people like you are the problem. Those insisting on taking days of are fighting for worker rights most of the world already has, the reason the US doesn’t is that there are to many people who betray their colleges like you do
Yup. I’m totally holding up the whole infrastructure of work. It was my idea to work and not have a working system. Hit that nail on the head. Thanks for looking deeper into my soul and giving me insight.
Buddy, the world isn’t resting on your shoulders. You’re just as replaceable as everybody else is. If you didn’t show up, they’d recover faster than you’d think. In a week they’d forget you were ever there. It’s a job, even if you were half as critical as you let yourself believe, your superiors certainly don’t believe it, and will cut you loose as soon as the number under your name goes from black to red.
It’s your bosses obligation to make sure there are enough people to cover the shifts not yours, if you except being exploited or even defend it than yes you are holding up everyone else.
It’s always funny to read
You can’t use your PTO without coverage. You’re too critical to business functions to miss even a single day.
We’ll fire you for any reason or no reason at all. We don’t even need you. You should be grateful we let you work here.
And folks wonder why 90% of businesses fail.
Attendance is not any reason. You are literally hired for attending. If you cannot be consistent how can you expect to be valuable?