So you blame the developer and not the pirates for this?
This is the equivalent of trumpers crying about “illegal” immigrants and not the people that hire them.
Go ahead and boycott the game over this. I’m sure the amount of money they’re making from all the would-be pirates now having to actually pay for a change will more than make up for it.
It’s completely logical to me. A thing can be two things. Maybe look up something called “nuance”.
Laughing about people crying because of an anti-piracy feature instead of being pissed at the pirates- then going so far as to say “well, they weren’t going to buy anyway!” as an argument against using it is fucking hilarious to me.
This doesn’t mean I have nothing to say about it. Nor does it make my stance in bad faith. I just think your argument is ridiculous, and therefore I laughed at it.
Logic is objective, so saying it’s logical “to you” is illogical.
A sense of humour is irrelevant to a discussion from a logical standpoint. Furthermore, we literally have data and studies that show that piracy doesn’t hurt the sales of games— when provided with this evidence in the comments, you just “laughed” at it.
You ask for reasoning/evidence, and when provided, just laugh at it. Laughter doesn’t dismiss evidence.
I laughed at the argument that “piracy doesn’t hurt the sales of games- THEREFORE it should be allowed”.
It’s not about hurting the sales of the games, which it does- they weren’t going to buy it anyway is a shit argument. And for those that PAY for it, it’s a slap in the face. I should get to play it for free too, right?
Where do you draw the line?
All game should be free! Developers don’t need paychecks! It’s a service to the people!
Show me the data that proves piracy actually causes a tangible loss for the developer for DRM to actually be needed.
(hint: it doesn’t exist. It instead shows most pirates weren’t going to buy the thing anyway, so they don’t make any more money by adding garbage like Denuvo)
The only way to do this accurately would require the same game to release twice on two planet Earths. It gets harder when pirates are not the types to offer up their purchase data honestly and willingly, for somewhat expectable reasons.
BUT, the closest we got is an old version of FIFA (we’ll assume it was FIFA. This is an old article, and unfortunately I’m only recalling details from memory until I can locate a very old bookmark) Those games sell each year, generally just to update the roster. You’ll see many college dorms where people just stack up each year’s edition they bought because that trend doesn’t change. In the year that the publisher added Denuvo encryption, the PC sales jumped significantly. The only reasonable explanation most analysts could come to is that many PC gamers found they couldn’t pirate the game, and bought it.
It’s not perfect data, not least because I don’t have a link right now. The other murky point is that the people who need to be convinced are not gamers, but publishers. Whatever arguments we make in forums, Denuvo makes its own arguments to them behind closed doors. So far, their arguments have been convincing, enough for publishers to burn money on licenses, and it may be because they have some very valuable, and non-public, figures that make the case. The games industry is not always obligated to release full numbers to its fanbase.
I’m not trying to suggest anyone should shut up and accept Denuvo, I think a lot of the frustration is valid. But I do think it can be more nuanced than you reali3z
Naah. It’s because I said my peace and don’t care to bicker with debate-bros that defend devaluing IP because they can’t run it on their shitty decades old PC.
You think game developers don’t deserve to be paid for their work.
I literally do not think that though. This is that nuance I was talking about that you’re afraid to engage with. Not everybody pirates games and then never buys them.
I’m very tight on money and cannot buy every game I’m interested in. So I pirate games and treat them as demos. If I dislike the game, I stop playing it, and no harm is done since I would have either never bought it or refunded it regardless. If I like the game, I’ll buy it at the first opportunity.
Esoteric Ebb is the most recent example of that, I played it for a few hours and it immediately jumped to the #2 spot on my wishlist. I haven’t bought it yet, but I plan to soon. It’s also recently happened with Schedule I, and this one I actually got. Me pirating the game has literally earned them a sale they otherwise would not have gotten.
My first Final Fantasy game was a rom a friend all but insisted I play. Before that the idea of random encounters and turned-based combat were a huge turnoff to me, and I had no interest in buying it. Since then I’ve purchased a copy of nearly every game in the series, some more than once for different platforms. Same story for the Trails games and some others.
That’s a lot of money those companies would never had received if it weren’t for just a little bit of piracy to make a fan out of someone.
Typically the people I know who pirate because they want to play without paying are doing so because they don’t have the money. As mentioned countless times before, they would not have bought the game otherwise because they probably couldn’t afford it in the first place. Denuvo may (or may not, I don’t actually know) block pirates, but it doesn’t ensure the publisher is making any more money. It does however ensure that regular paying folks get a worse product. I think people have the right to be upset about that. They could just use a different DRM.
Okay just ignore the personal anecdote on how a little bit of piracy actually helped create a long-time paying customer of multiple franchises, I guess.
(gollumnotlistening.gif)
But furthermore…
When Denuvo survives for at least 12 weeks, piracy leads to nearly zero total revenue loss on average. The results suggest that Denuvo does protect legitimate sales to an estimated mean of 15 percent of total revenue and median of 20 percent, but there is little justification to employ Denuvo long-term (i.e. for more than three months), especially given that Denuvo can have negative technical side effects and is generally disliked by users.
The study itself, linked in the article, states that Denuvo is effective at protecting sales for only about 12 weeks, then it does more long-term harm than good.
If that’s the case, I wonder how much Denuvo suppresses sales of a game over its lifetime once those 12 weeks are over?
Dude… the only people complaining about denuvo are people that would have pirated the game. There are tons of articles that illustrate the performance hit is barely noticeable. There’s even benchmarks that have been done to prove the negligible loss.
It’s a non-issue. It’s just would-be pirates on a crusade because they can’t play a game for free. This is a stale argument.
The developers have a lot of choices in their approach to piracy and they chose a company that makes performance killing restraints that runs concurrent to the software causing poor performance. The game could be fun and run well but it is saddled by the poor business choices of the developer.
Denuvo adds an obscene amount of checks to the executable, which manifests as an increased CPU load (compare Assassin’s Creed Origins with and without it) and poorer performance. It also restricts the game’s availability to legitimate paying customers if there’s any issue with the “is this a new installation” detector.
You… either completely missed or completely ignored the point. The point being that, in order to attack the pirates who wouldn’t have bought the game anyway, regular paying users are getting screwed over by a significant performance hit.
Denvuo can cause issues for Linux users trying to switch proton versions. Denuvo is also terrible for game preservation. It’s not just pirates that are affected negatively.
Yes I do because they actively chose to make their game shittier for people who purchase legitimate copies. You think pirates are going to pay for this shit? They were never going to pay to begin with, what makes you think they’re going to pay for it now?
Pirates weren’t going to buy anyway, so therefore just let them pirate the game.
Thats your argument?
So that’s a slap in the face of paying customers. Why not just make the game fee for everyone then? If stupid “what if’s” are allowed.
And I’m not contradicting shit. You’re crying about a protection the developer put in place to stop people from PLAYING THE GAME FOR FREE. And not crying about the people that caused them to have to do it.
Stop sabotaging games for paying customers is the argument. It’s not complicated. You are obviously more interested in trying to stick it to pirates than getting an optimal experience for your money. Pirates will still play it for free in the end anyway.
Pirates didn’t “cause” anyone to do anything. The developers did it themselves after buying into Denuvo’s scam. Thousands and thousands of dollars paid every month to make up for the unknowable number of “lost sales”. I guess there’s one thing Denuvo does well.
Also, you did contradict yourself. Will the pirates buy the game or will they not? Make your mind up.
For denuvo to adversely effect your gameplay, you need to be running some seriously outdated hardware. It sucked the life out of AC Origins, sure…. Almost ten years ago….
It’s basically a non-issue now.
The only people crying about it now are would-be pirates that never planned to buy it in the first place. They are people pretending to be on a crusade against the «evil» Denuvo but in reality just angry they now can’t easily pirate the game anymore.
So Denuvo “basically” doesn’t cause any performance issues, and if it does, its the users fault for having lower end hardware? That’s just ridiculous.
Calling all critics of Denuvo pirates is nonsense. Not all people who buy games are okay with mandatory online checks, performance hits, and curtailing of mod support.
Speaking of things that Trumpers do… Falsely accuse all opponents of being domestic terrorists or radical leftists and refuse to accept that they might be wrong.
Which programmer, game designer, graphics designer, voice actor, musician or what have you is paid how much more because they added denuvo? After the fact, mind you, so all the contracts and wages were agreed long ago.
So you blame the developer and not the pirates for this?
This is the equivalent of trumpers crying about “illegal” immigrants and not the people that hire them.
Go ahead and boycott the game over this. I’m sure the amount of money they’re making from all the would-be pirates now having to actually pay for a change will more than make up for it.
The pirates didn’t add a piece of software that doesn’t help sales, slows down computers, and eventually breaks the game. They remove it.
In a world were plenty of games without denuvo are doing just fine? Fuck yeah I blame the publisher/dev.
Go back to the Steam forums where you belong, bootlicker.
Person disagrees with your opinion:
You: “bOoTliCkEr!”
Except when people provide you with evidence and reasoning you just go “lmao” and leave it at that too.
I laugh at shit I find funny. If that makes someone a bootlicker, I hope for your sake that you have no sense of humor whatsoever.
Sure, just don’t pretend you’re engaging in logical discussion.
It’s completely logical to me. A thing can be two things. Maybe look up something called “nuance”.
Laughing about people crying because of an anti-piracy feature instead of being pissed at the pirates- then going so far as to say “well, they weren’t going to buy anyway!” as an argument against using it is fucking hilarious to me.
This doesn’t mean I have nothing to say about it. Nor does it make my stance in bad faith. I just think your argument is ridiculous, and therefore I laughed at it.
Logic is objective, so saying it’s logical “to you” is illogical.
A sense of humour is irrelevant to a discussion from a logical standpoint. Furthermore, we literally have data and studies that show that piracy doesn’t hurt the sales of games— when provided with this evidence in the comments, you just “laughed” at it.
You ask for reasoning/evidence, and when provided, just laugh at it. Laughter doesn’t dismiss evidence.
I laughed at the argument that “piracy doesn’t hurt the sales of games- THEREFORE it should be allowed”.
It’s not about hurting the sales of the games, which it does- they weren’t going to buy it anyway is a shit argument. And for those that PAY for it, it’s a slap in the face. I should get to play it for free too, right?
Where do you draw the line?
All game should be free! Developers don’t need paychecks! It’s a service to the people!
LMAO!
And read THIS
Show me the data that proves piracy actually causes a tangible loss for the developer for DRM to actually be needed.
(hint: it doesn’t exist. It instead shows most pirates weren’t going to buy the thing anyway, so they don’t make any more money by adding garbage like Denuvo)
The only way to do this accurately would require the same game to release twice on two planet Earths. It gets harder when pirates are not the types to offer up their purchase data honestly and willingly, for somewhat expectable reasons.
BUT, the closest we got is an old version of FIFA (we’ll assume it was FIFA. This is an old article, and unfortunately I’m only recalling details from memory until I can locate a very old bookmark) Those games sell each year, generally just to update the roster. You’ll see many college dorms where people just stack up each year’s edition they bought because that trend doesn’t change. In the year that the publisher added Denuvo encryption, the PC sales jumped significantly. The only reasonable explanation most analysts could come to is that many PC gamers found they couldn’t pirate the game, and bought it.
It’s not perfect data, not least because I don’t have a link right now. The other murky point is that the people who need to be convinced are not gamers, but publishers. Whatever arguments we make in forums, Denuvo makes its own arguments to them behind closed doors. So far, their arguments have been convincing, enough for publishers to burn money on licenses, and it may be because they have some very valuable, and non-public, figures that make the case. The games industry is not always obligated to release full numbers to its fanbase.
I’m not trying to suggest anyone should shut up and accept Denuvo, I think a lot of the frustration is valid. But I do think it can be more nuanced than you reali3z
Lmao…. Show you the data that would otherwise be impossible to show you?
There is no tangible way to prove who would or wouldn’t buy a thing if the parameters were different other than polling them.
And how exactly do you think polling dishonest people will turn out?
Why is pirating inherently dishonest in your opinion?
That question is too stupid to bother answering.
Since we all know your actual thought without even being told: Making a copy is not theft.
It is. But I’m not going to argue with you about it.
Yeah… Because you don’t have a leg to stand on. 🙄
Naah. It’s because I said my peace and don’t care to bicker with debate-bros that defend devaluing IP because they can’t run it on their shitty decades old PC.
Shame. It’s a more nuanced discussion than you seem to believe.
But Rhoeri said they always use nuance in discussions, they couldn’t be defending companies that don’t care about them.
Sure bud 👍
You think game developers don’t deserve to be paid for their work.
There is no nuance in this argument, therefore there’s no merit in debating it.
I literally do not think that though. This is that nuance I was talking about that you’re afraid to engage with. Not everybody pirates games and then never buys them.
I’m very tight on money and cannot buy every game I’m interested in. So I pirate games and treat them as demos. If I dislike the game, I stop playing it, and no harm is done since I would have either never bought it or refunded it regardless. If I like the game, I’ll buy it at the first opportunity.
Esoteric Ebb is the most recent example of that, I played it for a few hours and it immediately jumped to the #2 spot on my wishlist. I haven’t bought it yet, but I plan to soon. It’s also recently happened with Schedule I, and this one I actually got. Me pirating the game has literally earned them a sale they otherwise would not have gotten.
Welp, Rheori said you didn’t do it, I guess your argument is now invalid.
Bullshit.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/09/eu-study-finds-piracy-doesnt-hurt-game-sales-may-actually-help/
Now he’s giving links without reading yours, holy shit this guy.
LMAO….
What an argument to credible sources disproving you wrong. Trump supporter logic.
LMAO! Trump supporter logic is getting mad at the result of the problem and not the problem. Keyword: “they’re taking our jobs!”
And piracy actually hurts game developers:
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2024/10/the-true-cost-of-game-piracy-20-percent-of-revenue-according-to-a-new-study/
But don’t let this get in the way of a good ol’ fashion outrage. 😂
My first Final Fantasy game was a rom a friend all but insisted I play. Before that the idea of random encounters and turned-based combat were a huge turnoff to me, and I had no interest in buying it. Since then I’ve purchased a copy of nearly every game in the series, some more than once for different platforms. Same story for the Trails games and some others.
That’s a lot of money those companies would never had received if it weren’t for just a little bit of piracy to make a fan out of someone.
Typically the people I know who pirate because they want to play without paying are doing so because they don’t have the money. As mentioned countless times before, they would not have bought the game otherwise because they probably couldn’t afford it in the first place. Denuvo may (or may not, I don’t actually know) block pirates, but it doesn’t ensure the publisher is making any more money. It does however ensure that regular paying folks get a worse product. I think people have the right to be upset about that. They could just use a different DRM.
Bullshit.
Okay just ignore the personal anecdote on how a little bit of piracy actually helped create a long-time paying customer of multiple franchises, I guess.
(gollumnotlistening.gif)
But furthermore…
The study itself, linked in the article, states that Denuvo is effective at protecting sales for only about 12 weeks, then it does more long-term harm than good.
If that’s the case, I wonder how much Denuvo suppresses sales of a game over its lifetime once those 12 weeks are over?
Dude… the only people complaining about denuvo are people that would have pirated the game. There are tons of articles that illustrate the performance hit is barely noticeable. There’s even benchmarks that have been done to prove the negligible loss.
It’s a non-issue. It’s just would-be pirates on a crusade because they can’t play a game for free. This is a stale argument.
The developers have a lot of choices in their approach to piracy and they chose a company that makes performance killing restraints that runs concurrent to the software causing poor performance. The game could be fun and run well but it is saddled by the poor business choices of the developer.
Denuvo adds an obscene amount of checks to the executable, which manifests as an increased CPU load (compare Assassin’s Creed Origins with and without it) and poorer performance. It also restricts the game’s availability to legitimate paying customers if there’s any issue with the “is this a new installation” detector.
Would-be pirates were never going to pay for it.
No loss.
You… either completely missed or completely ignored the point. The point being that, in order to attack the pirates who wouldn’t have bought the game anyway, regular paying users are getting screwed over by a significant performance hit.
Again, ten years ago this would be a true statement. Today, your system must be pretty shitty to be hit with performance issues.
The only people complaining about this are people who would have pirated it but now can’t.
Denvuo can cause issues for Linux users trying to switch proton versions. Denuvo is also terrible for game preservation. It’s not just pirates that are affected negatively.
The only people complaining about this are people who would have pirated it but now can’t.
Thank you for completely ignoring what I said and just repeating your rhetoric for the third time. Very constructive. Much discussion. Wow!
NuAncE from Rheori
Yes I do because they actively chose to make their game shittier for people who purchase legitimate copies. You think pirates are going to pay for this shit? They were never going to pay to begin with, what makes you think they’re going to pay for it now?
They’re not. And now they don’t get to play it for free either.
Win-win.
Way to contradict yourself in literally the next comment. Clearly you are a shill and not a serious person.
Pirates weren’t going to buy anyway, so therefore just let them pirate the game.
Thats your argument?
So that’s a slap in the face of paying customers. Why not just make the game fee for everyone then? If stupid “what if’s” are allowed.
And I’m not contradicting shit. You’re crying about a protection the developer put in place to stop people from PLAYING THE GAME FOR FREE. And not crying about the people that caused them to have to do it.
Fucking laughable.
Oh, and read this:
Stop sabotaging games for paying customers is the argument. It’s not complicated. You are obviously more interested in trying to stick it to pirates than getting an optimal experience for your money. Pirates will still play it for free in the end anyway.
Pirates didn’t “cause” anyone to do anything. The developers did it themselves after buying into Denuvo’s scam. Thousands and thousands of dollars paid every month to make up for the unknowable number of “lost sales”. I guess there’s one thing Denuvo does well.
Also, you did contradict yourself. Will the pirates buy the game or will they not? Make your mind up.
For denuvo to adversely effect your gameplay, you need to be running some seriously outdated hardware. It sucked the life out of AC Origins, sure…. Almost ten years ago….
It’s basically a non-issue now.
The only people crying about it now are would-be pirates that never planned to buy it in the first place. They are people pretending to be on a crusade against the «evil» Denuvo but in reality just angry they now can’t easily pirate the game anymore.
So Denuvo “basically” doesn’t cause any performance issues, and if it does, its the users fault for having lower end hardware? That’s just ridiculous.
Calling all critics of Denuvo pirates is nonsense. Not all people who buy games are okay with mandatory online checks, performance hits, and curtailing of mod support.
Speaking of things that Trumpers do… Falsely accuse all opponents of being domestic terrorists or radical leftists and refuse to accept that they might be wrong.
Lmao.
Who exactly “wins” anything here?
The dev pays for denuvo licenses an doesn’t gain enough sales to make up for it - lose.
The pirate waits longer to play the game - lose.
The paying customer gets an inferior product - lose.
Again, ten years ago there was a performance hit. Now, it’s not even noticeable unless you have severely outdated hardware.
The only people whining about this are people that would have pirated the game. Tough shit.
The people who worked their asses off to make a good game deserve to be paid for it. That’s who wins.
I wouldn’t expect anyone here to give a shit about that though. Enjoy your little memes.
Which programmer, game designer, graphics designer, voice actor, musician or what have you is paid how much more because they added denuvo? After the fact, mind you, so all the contracts and wages were agreed long ago.
He can’t answer because he doesn’t want people to play games, he just wants people to pay for DRM spyware.
LMAO!