Look, I don’t disagree with your point necessarily, but you’re not winning over literally anyone in this thread. It’s just not happening.
Nobody ever has been convinced that dairy is rape and meat is murder by some Lemmy user saying “dairy is rape” and following up with “because it is”.
Most obviously, your primary argument is consequentialism, which many people just don’t see as a valid form of ethics. Many people subscribe to deontology instead, and so they don’t see it as rape because they are not obtaining sexual gratification from artificial insemination or drinking milk.
You’re telling me motive makes a bad thing okay to do under deontology? In other words, it’s okay for a deontologist to murder someone if they have a cool motive?
I dunno I thought Kant said you should never do bad things even if you have a good reason.
Imo, Kant’s principles don’t really apply in this scenario, the Categorical Imperative applies to human-to-human treatment. Kant’s primary principle is act as such it would become universal law. Animal consumption is already a universal law.
Murder (of a human) is wrong because when applied universally, then society collapses. Theft is wrong because when applied universally, the right of property, and therefore society, collapses.
Animal consumption doesn’t cause societal collapse.
Animal consumption causes factory farming, and farming causes chickens to develop stress-induced autophagia. I don’t like it when the chickens are so unhappy they eat themselves and need to be debeaked. We should all stop doing things that cause that.
Is “sticking your dick in a pet dog” the same as artificially inseminating livestock? No, it’s obviously not even close to the same thing? Then, obviously, no.
It’s a foreign object in the vagina used to inject semen. It’s exactly the same. An artificial insemination device is an artificial penis. It’s designed to do what a penis does.
You really think you’re going to win an argument by attempting to claim that fucking a dog is “exactly the same” as what dairy farmers do when they artificially inseminate cattle? False equivalency. What’s it mean when your beliefs depend on fallacies? 🤔
Not so in various parts of the world, which goes to show that humans play fast and loose with rights and morality.
You wanting to uphold those values anyway tells me that you wish for all humans to be treated the same: with dignity and respect. That same belief underpins my desire for animals to have the same, despite many places in the world completely foregoing their rights.
It’s a shame that your anthropocentrism doesn’t afford empathy for non-human animals
So… I guess you’re done trying to argue your position after running into multiple fallacies, we’ve moved past the threats and name calling (sorta lol), and we’re onto the signaling-false-moral-superiority stage. Cool
One is done with a glorified Turkey baster to livestock. The other with your penis to a woman.
Both are non-consensual penetrations of animal vaginas. The actors involved need not be the same species, as in bestiality, and the thing used to penetrate need not be a body part. How would you like it if the women loved ones in your life were vaginally penetrated with Turkey basters instead of penises? Makes no difference because the deed is the same: concent is violated and in a sexual (read: vaginal body parts = sexual body parts) manner.
I’m not comparing women to livestock in the slightest, you’re putting words in my mouth. I’m saying that actions of rape DONE TO BOTH women and animals bear exact similarity. There is no difference between artificial insemination without consent of women as for animals, and there is no difference between vaginal intercourse without consent of animals as for women. Both of these instances constitute rape.
And artificial insemination without consent to a women is absolutely rape. It consists of vaginal penetration without consent. That is literally the definition.
Forced impregnation isn’t rape, forced labour isn’t slavery, and forced death isn’t murder with you carnists. What else, war is peace and ignorance is strength? We’ve always been at war with eastasia?
see, the first thing you learn when you graduate from college, and the first point of evidence i provided, is that things you learn in college are not the same as things in the real world. you should probably spend some more time outside the ivory tower and in the real world.
Artificial insemination is rape. It involves non-consensual penetration of another animal. It can happen by a bull, by a human, or by any other animal (or alien for that matter). Makes no difference for the animal that is on the receiving end.
Your idea of nuance quite conveniently means that the moral caution you afford to humans isn’t afforded to animals, which is anthropocentrist and egocentric. If ever in the future you call yourself empathetic, know that you absolutely aren’t.
Your idea of nuance quite conveniently means that the moral caution you afford to humans isn’t afforded to animals
Yes, absolutely, things are different in different situations and contexts. That’s literally how nuance works. Absolutism and reducing morality down to black-and-white is incorrect.
If ever in the future you call yourself empathetic, know that you absolutely aren’t.
🙄 yeah, using actual rape victims’ suffering to push your personal agenda makes you super empathetic and the good guy… oh brother
Nope, I’m right. Rape is the non-consensual penetration of another animal’s vaginal, anal, or oral orifices. Applies to humans, cows, or any other animal.
things are different in different situations and contexts.
But humans and animals are the same in their capacity to experience pain and pleasure (i.e. to be sentient). That capacity may vary according to species, but your lack of recognition for that once again proves to me how egocentric you are. How fucking dull.
actual rape victims
You mean cows right? And women? And any other member of a species that experiences rape? You cannot gatekeep this to just humans. Seems to me that you’re the one disrespecting rape victims here by denying how other species can experience the same.
Hey idiot, note how I started that sentence with the word “seems”, as in how your comments looked to me. You’re welcome to correct that perception! I don’t see you pushing back on this though.
Artificial insemination is not rape
It is.
I’ve never claimed that animals cannot be raped.
You actively are by denying that artificial insemination isn’t rape
Imagine if we sugar coated women that undergo sexual abuse and rape. We’d be 100% in support of the women, no questions asked (well, hopefully, but more and more beta incel cucks are making their voices heard online).
People will ignore this issue just like they ignore climate change. We as activists have a role in making it so they can’t ignore these things
Are you actually comparing climate change to animal abuse? Lol
Holy SHIT the reading comprehension in this thread is subzero. I wasn’t COMPARING.
I was saying that HUMANS will ignore the reality in front of them if it means they can uphold their materialistic desires and wants. HUMANS will ignore climate change, genocide, animal abuse and slaughter, homelessness, whatever you want to put here. Many Western countries into today’s age are individualistic and selfish.
People aren’t ignoring climate change though, and I would generally think that’s because it’s an existential threat. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
Tell that to the people that voted in far-Right politicians in many of the Western countries in the last few years. Recognizing climate change, or animals rights for that matter, is not a value the Right holds.
You’re comparing apples and oranges.
Yes, once again you’re IGNORING the reason why I brought up climate change in this context. Why are deliberately misreading my arguments? Makes you seem disingenuous and acting in bad faith.
Our response to climate change will mean we need to change how we power our lives. People in Western countries by and large don’t want to change or be forced to adopt different habits. They want their desires met, whether that means gassing up their cars faster than it takes for EVs to charge, taking flights when rail or road based transit would work, or using more and more Artificial Intelligence to do things for them that they have the ability to do already (driving up grid costs exponentially). When talking about consumption of these things in the economy, trends don’t show decreasing consumption. More people on the planet use more, and this is not to even begin talking about phenomena like the Jevons paradox.
With animals rights, we’re now talking about taking meat, pork, chicken, lamb, fish, etc. off the menu. New alternatives for dishes will need to be found, or existing dishes will need to be converted to use non-animal plant-based foods. People will need to change their habits if alternatives aren’t found, which is the less preferable option. Once again, humans on the whole don’t like change, so there will be a resistance here to changing diets. People will find all the excuses in the world to fend off change.
The behavioral antics humans display in the face of climate change and animal rights, or better put in the face of people’s habits and lifestyles changing as a result of climate change and animal rights (if the latter is ever possible), are the same. The CAUSES that ELICIT the behaviors can be different.
Also I think even if they want to make the most forfecul point possible, I don’t think talking about consent is the greatest thing.
Should really impress the fact that they’re won’t produce milk unless they’ve been pregnant. So dairy cows are kept pregnant as much as possible. They live like five years then collapse of exhaustion and get carted to the slaughterhouse.
The cows my late grandma tended to in her youth lived like 20 years.
Industrial intensive farming is immoral as fuck but I can’t really pretend like the cow understands sexual assault.
Its also an insult to actual rape victims to equate artificial insemination of a cow with rape. Just using their real suffering as propaganda to push an agenda
First two questions: False equivalency, I am not livestock.
Last question: It’s interesting that you have such extreme views without seeming to know anything about it. You should probably inform yourself and learn something about dairy, before choosing an extreme and naive conviction. I know the cows do not resist because they are artificially inseminated while in estrus.
I mean I would say they probably don’t know because they aren’t sapient, but sure.
You aren’t going to change industrialized factory farming abuse by berating and lecturing people on Lemmy. People are just going to be more annoyed by your cause. I don’t even entirely disagree with you, to be honest.
No, I’m not going to change my messaging. There are many other vegans both on Lemmy, on social media, and IRL that probably have different messaging than me in this one instance. Hell, I probably will have different messaging from post to post and conversation to conversation.
But in my opinion, this conversation violates my beliefs so much that I need to retaliate.
If you have something you care about, let me see how you react. “The live streamed Holocaust in Gaza right now isn’t bad because the Palestinians want this”. I’m not sure if you’re for or against Palestinian resistance, but if you take the thinking in this thread and apply it elsewhere, it’s fucking psychotic.
How do we know cows have no conception of rape? Or no conception of when their children, right after being born, are taken away from them, never to be seen again?
Try telling that to the fascist Israelis committing a live stream Holocaust.
People are either receptive or not. Activists can choose how to communicate their message. Just because it doesn’t work for you, that doesn’t mean it won’t work for others.
… in threads like this, people like you always get downvoted, and people saying spreading the message via exaggeration doesn’t work gets upvoted. Unless you think the only people who matter don’t vote, the data (and common sense) is against you.
People would probably be more supportive of your cause if you didn’t exaggerate in the most extreme and incorrect ways
Cows produce more milk if they’re forcibly impregnated every year. Supporting cow milk is supporting rape, this is a fact.
Look, I don’t disagree with your point necessarily, but you’re not winning over literally anyone in this thread. It’s just not happening.
Nobody ever has been convinced that dairy is rape and meat is murder by some Lemmy user saying “dairy is rape” and following up with “because it is”.
Most obviously, your primary argument is consequentialism, which many people just don’t see as a valid form of ethics. Many people subscribe to deontology instead, and so they don’t see it as rape because they are not obtaining sexual gratification from artificial insemination or drinking milk.
You’re telling me motive makes a bad thing okay to do under deontology? In other words, it’s okay for a deontologist to murder someone if they have a cool motive?
I dunno I thought Kant said you should never do bad things even if you have a good reason.
Imo, Kant’s principles don’t really apply in this scenario, the Categorical Imperative applies to human-to-human treatment. Kant’s primary principle is act as such it would become universal law. Animal consumption is already a universal law.
Murder (of a human) is wrong because when applied universally, then society collapses. Theft is wrong because when applied universally, the right of property, and therefore society, collapses.
Animal consumption doesn’t cause societal collapse.
Thoughts?
Animal consumption causes factory farming, and farming causes chickens to develop stress-induced autophagia. I don’t like it when the chickens are so unhappy they eat themselves and need to be debeaked. We should all stop doing things that cause that.
no, it doesn’t
The word you’re looking for is “artificial insemination” and it does not equate to rape. This is a fact.
Watch rapists try this one nasty trick.
Alright then c’mon over buddy I’ll get the turkey baster ready
I’m not even vegan but wtf is this logic
False equivalency; I am not a cow.
My logic is sound and self consistent while yours depends on fallacies.
…can animals not be raped?
Of course they can, however artificially inseminating livestock is not rape. Nuance exists.
There is no nuance.
Rape means no consent was granted. We need communication to receive consent. We cannot communicate with cows.
You’re a shill for the dairy industry. You drink rape milk
doors dont consent for you to jam your keys in them.
So putting semen up a vagina without consent isn’t rape?
The concept of consent does not apply for livestock in this context. And yes, in the context of artificially inseminating livestock, that is correct.
Disgusting comment, it doesn’t stop being rape because the species are different.
it’s a veterinary procedure
In what context? Animals? Are you saying a guy sticking his dick in his pet dog is a situation without any consent problems?
Is “sticking your dick in a pet dog” the same as artificially inseminating livestock? No, it’s obviously not even close to the same thing? Then, obviously, no.
It’s a foreign object in the vagina used to inject semen. It’s exactly the same. An artificial insemination device is an artificial penis. It’s designed to do what a penis does.
You really think you’re going to win an argument by attempting to claim that fucking a dog is “exactly the same” as what dairy farmers do when they artificially inseminate cattle? False equivalency. What’s it mean when your beliefs depend on fallacies? 🤔
The concept of human rights does not apply for when I shove a boot up your ass after you’re done licking the dairy industry’s.
Nope, it still applies because I’m a human.
Not so in various parts of the world, which goes to show that humans play fast and loose with rights and morality.
You wanting to uphold those values anyway tells me that you wish for all humans to be treated the same: with dignity and respect. That same belief underpins my desire for animals to have the same, despite many places in the world completely foregoing their rights.
It’s a shame that your anthropocentrism doesn’t afford empathy for non-human animals
So… I guess you’re done trying to argue your position after running into multiple fallacies, we’ve moved past the threats and name calling (sorta lol), and we’re onto the signaling-false-moral-superiority stage. Cool
So you are saying rape doesn’t exist in a slavery context.
No, slavery does not apply to livestock.
Farm animals are slaves.
no they are not
Are you a troll? Are you giving bad carnist arguments on purpose to help the vegan cause?
Great job!
They’re 100%
No, I’m just correct.
Ok buddy, explain to me the difference between artificial insemination and rape.
I’ll wait
I am sure laws vary by country, but going with laws here…
One is done with a glorified Turkey baster to livestock. The other with your penis to a woman.
Are we seriously comparing women to livestock here? But even AI to a human woman would be sexual assault, not rape.
Both are non-consensual penetrations of animal vaginas. The actors involved need not be the same species, as in bestiality, and the thing used to penetrate need not be a body part. How would you like it if the women loved ones in your life were vaginally penetrated with Turkey basters instead of penises? Makes no difference because the deed is the same: concent is violated and in a sexual (read: vaginal body parts = sexual body parts) manner.
I’m not comparing women to livestock in the slightest, you’re putting words in my mouth. I’m saying that actions of rape DONE TO BOTH women and animals bear exact similarity. There is no difference between artificial insemination without consent of women as for animals, and there is no difference between vaginal intercourse without consent of animals as for women. Both of these instances constitute rape.
And artificial insemination without consent to a women is absolutely rape. It consists of vaginal penetration without consent. That is literally the definition.
You must either life under a different legal system or your farmers are shagging their cattle to inseminate them for it to be rape.
How does a farmer find his cows?
Irresistible!
Adding “This is a fact” doesn’t make it a fact, sadly. Unless you’re in the US.
yeah, we just let the bull do his thing and the family dairy worked fine until we sold it in the 90s. where you getting your info because I lived it?
https://extension.umn.edu/dairy-milking-cows/artificial-insemination-cattle
!=rape. sorry.
Forced impregnation isn’t rape, forced labour isn’t slavery, and forced death isn’t murder with you carnists. What else, war is peace and ignorance is strength? We’ve always been at war with eastasia?
see, the first thing you learn when you graduate from college, and the first point of evidence i provided, is that things you learn in college are not the same as things in the real world. you should probably spend some more time outside the ivory tower and in the real world.
Wow ad hominems, how dirty.
Never thought I’d ever have to actually use this but
You’re a dairy shill that lacks moral intelligence.
Of course you find the truth exaggerative when you’ve twisted your ethics to only consider rape a human phenomenon.
I’ve never claimed that rape is only a “human phenomenon”. Artificial insemination of livestock is not raping them though.
I just have common sense and understand that nuance exists.
Artificial insemination is rape. It involves non-consensual penetration of another animal. It can happen by a bull, by a human, or by any other animal (or alien for that matter). Makes no difference for the animal that is on the receiving end.
Your idea of nuance quite conveniently means that the moral caution you afford to humans isn’t afforded to animals, which is anthropocentrist and egocentric. If ever in the future you call yourself empathetic, know that you absolutely aren’t.
Factually incorrect
Yes, absolutely, things are different in different situations and contexts. That’s literally how nuance works. Absolutism and reducing morality down to black-and-white is incorrect.
🙄 yeah, using actual rape victims’ suffering to push your personal agenda makes you super empathetic and the good guy… oh brother
Nope, I’m right. Rape is the non-consensual penetration of another animal’s vaginal, anal, or oral orifices. Applies to humans, cows, or any other animal.
But humans and animals are the same in their capacity to experience pain and pleasure (i.e. to be sentient). That capacity may vary according to species, but your lack of recognition for that once again proves to me how egocentric you are. How fucking dull.
You mean cows right? And women? And any other member of a species that experiences rape? You cannot gatekeep this to just humans. Seems to me that you’re the one disrespecting rape victims here by denying how other species can experience the same.
I’ve never claimed that animals cannot be raped. Artificial insemination is not rape, though.
Animal rapist defender comment right here.
🙄🙄🙄 oh grow up
Hey idiot, note how I started that sentence with the word “seems”, as in how your comments looked to me. You’re welcome to correct that perception! I don’t see you pushing back on this though.
It is.
You actively are by denying that artificial insemination isn’t rape
How do you think cows make milk on large, industrial scales?
Do you think they’re always producing milk? Or that the industry switched cows out 1 by 1 as each and every one stops making milk?
If you don’t the answer to these important, fundamental questions, you are living an ignorant life
Dairy cows are artificially inseminated once per year.
Raped*
wrong
Care to point out where I exaggerated “in the most extreme and incorrect ways?”
They have got a point. You know what they mean. People will ignore you if you push your narrative too far, in their opinion
Let’s ignore all protestors because they’re annoying I’m sure fossil fuels and Israel would be very pleased with your comment 🤪
There’s quite literally no other way to put it.
Imagine if we sugar coated women that undergo sexual abuse and rape. We’d be 100% in support of the women, no questions asked (well, hopefully, but more and more beta incel cucks are making their voices heard online).
People will ignore this issue just like they ignore climate change. We as activists have a role in making it so they can’t ignore these things
Are you actually comparing climate change to animal abuse? Lol
At the very least I’d say people are significantly more aware and receptive to climate change.
Holy SHIT the reading comprehension in this thread is subzero. I wasn’t COMPARING.
I was saying that HUMANS will ignore the reality in front of them if it means they can uphold their materialistic desires and wants. HUMANS will ignore climate change, genocide, animal abuse and slaughter, homelessness, whatever you want to put here. Many Western countries into today’s age are individualistic and selfish.
People aren’t ignoring climate change though, and I would generally think that’s because it’s an existential threat. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
Tell that to the people that voted in far-Right politicians in many of the Western countries in the last few years. Recognizing climate change, or animals rights for that matter, is not a value the Right holds.
Yes, once again you’re IGNORING the reason why I brought up climate change in this context. Why are deliberately misreading my arguments? Makes you seem disingenuous and acting in bad faith.
Our response to climate change will mean we need to change how we power our lives. People in Western countries by and large don’t want to change or be forced to adopt different habits. They want their desires met, whether that means gassing up their cars faster than it takes for EVs to charge, taking flights when rail or road based transit would work, or using more and more Artificial Intelligence to do things for them that they have the ability to do already (driving up grid costs exponentially). When talking about consumption of these things in the economy, trends don’t show decreasing consumption. More people on the planet use more, and this is not to even begin talking about phenomena like the Jevons paradox.
With animals rights, we’re now talking about taking meat, pork, chicken, lamb, fish, etc. off the menu. New alternatives for dishes will need to be found, or existing dishes will need to be converted to use non-animal plant-based foods. People will need to change their habits if alternatives aren’t found, which is the less preferable option. Once again, humans on the whole don’t like change, so there will be a resistance here to changing diets. People will find all the excuses in the world to fend off change.
The behavioral antics humans display in the face of climate change and animal rights, or better put in the face of people’s habits and lifestyles changing as a result of climate change and animal rights (if the latter is ever possible), are the same. The CAUSES that ELICIT the behaviors can be different.
Because I said “animal rape?” How dare I state blatantly where the beloved dairy products come from, the horror!
So you do know what the incorrect and absurd exaggeration was, after all.
I’m with this guy.
Also I think even if they want to make the most forfecul point possible, I don’t think talking about consent is the greatest thing.
Should really impress the fact that they’re won’t produce milk unless they’ve been pregnant. So dairy cows are kept pregnant as much as possible. They live like five years then collapse of exhaustion and get carted to the slaughterhouse.
The cows my late grandma tended to in her youth lived like 20 years.
Industrial intensive farming is immoral as fuck but I can’t really pretend like the cow understands sexual assault.
They don’t have to “understand it” they feel it. Stop defending the rape of cows.
Its also an insult to actual rape victims to equate artificial insemination of a cow with rape. Just using their real suffering as propaganda to push an agenda
Good point.
Have you ever been forcefully impregnated before?
Have you even had your recent new born separated from you and made orphan?
Just because the sexual act isn’t between the same species, and because the subordinate doesn’t resist, doesn’t make it any more wrong.
And how do you know that cows DON’T resist being artificially inseminated? How do you know you can generalize?
First two questions: False equivalency, I am not livestock.
Last question: It’s interesting that you have such extreme views without seeming to know anything about it. You should probably inform yourself and learn something about dairy, before choosing an extreme and naive conviction. I know the cows do not resist because they are artificially inseminated while in estrus.
It’s hard to express how weird a statement this is…
You’re stating cows experience no “real” suffering, which is verifiably false.
Does the victim have to understand sexual assault in order for an action to be so?
How do we know that cows DON’T understand it???
Holy SHIT the speciesism on this post is RAMPANT
I mean I would say they probably don’t know because they aren’t sapient, but sure.
You aren’t going to change industrialized factory farming abuse by berating and lecturing people on Lemmy. People are just going to be more annoyed by your cause. I don’t even entirely disagree with you, to be honest.
No, I’m not going to change my messaging. There are many other vegans both on Lemmy, on social media, and IRL that probably have different messaging than me in this one instance. Hell, I probably will have different messaging from post to post and conversation to conversation.
But in my opinion, this conversation violates my beliefs so much that I need to retaliate.
If you have something you care about, let me see how you react. “The live streamed Holocaust in Gaza right now isn’t bad because the Palestinians want this”. I’m not sure if you’re for or against Palestinian resistance, but if you take the thinking in this thread and apply it elsewhere, it’s fucking psychotic.
😂🤡
Thanks for showing us all how much of a clown YOU are
deleted by creator
I think it’s more about the vaginal penetration that this vegan is talking about than fondling some nipples, but the point still stands, yeah.
How do we know cows have no conception of rape? Or no conception of when their children, right after being born, are taken away from them, never to be seen again?
I don’t know if I should or the one to tell you this, but the milking itself isn’t the rape they’re referring to.
The rape has nothing to do with the utters.
Please 🙏 do your own research here
Apparently it doesn’t bother you that you make veganism look bad since you chose to be sarcastic like that. You’re actively preventing veganism
Are you a vegan?
If not, who are you to say you know what’s best for our movement?
Activism from all sides is important to the cause. You downplaying this Lemming’s activism is serving to silence their voice
If anyone would know best, it’d be someone you’re trying to convince. Shit take
Try telling that to the fascist Israelis committing a live stream Holocaust.
People are either receptive or not. Activists can choose how to communicate their message. Just because it doesn’t work for you, that doesn’t mean it won’t work for others.
Exactly watch all these carnists act like they understand activism than the actual vegans.
… in threads like this, people like you always get downvoted, and people saying spreading the message via exaggeration doesn’t work gets upvoted. Unless you think the only people who matter don’t vote, the data (and common sense) is against you.
Speedrun comparing anti-veganism to the Holocaust any% WR