Also I think even if they want to make the most forfecul point possible, I don’t think talking about consent is the greatest thing.
Should really impress the fact that they’re won’t produce milk unless they’ve been pregnant. So dairy cows are kept pregnant as much as possible. They live like five years then collapse of exhaustion and get carted to the slaughterhouse.
The cows my late grandma tended to in her youth lived like 20 years.
Industrial intensive farming is immoral as fuck but I can’t really pretend like the cow understands sexual assault.
Its also an insult to actual rape victims to equate artificial insemination of a cow with rape. Just using their real suffering as propaganda to push an agenda
First two questions: False equivalency, I am not livestock.
Last question: It’s interesting that you have such extreme views without seeming to know anything about it. You should probably inform yourself and learn something about dairy, before choosing an extreme and naive conviction. I know the cows do not resist because they are artificially inseminated while in estrus.
Your application of false equivalency here just cements my idea of you. You’re egocentric and anthropocentrist, and only care about the human species for moral consideration. You’re no different to me than the fascists in power the world over that seek to dominate minority groups.
Cows have a variety of responses to being artificially inseminated. Because of this, farmers have adopted different tactics to force them to submit, whether that’s using drugs, stun guns, cages that don’t allow the cows to flee. Whether cows resist, which is possible, or they submit doesn’t matter. They are still raped at the end of the day.
If YOU know so much about the dairy industry, then you either know the answers to this debate and choose to ignore them because it makes you look bad, or you ignore the reality altogether and tell yourself bedtime stories to cope with your already existing immoral habits.
You’re no different to me than the fascists in power the world over that seek to dominate minority groups.
Yep, gotta make everything black and white in order to process the world. Very healthy “if you eat dairy you’re a fascist” 😂 It’s at that ridiculous statement that someone capable of self reflection would realize they are wrong. Your childish naivety is showing.
If you can’t see how domesticating animals is a form of fascism, just applied to non-humans, then I can’t save you. You’re reinforcing your pre-existing beliefs by insulating yourself with lies. Do me and all rape victims a favor: learn about the evil and corrupt animal ag industry, and its effects on both humans and animals. You’ll come back with a stronger sense of morality than whatever flimsy shit you call yours now
Well that’s ironic, given that you just tried to say I stated “cows experience no real suffering”, which is obviously ridiculous… probably another thing you should stop doing if you want people to support your side or take you seriously.
Well I’m glad we cleared that position up. Now if you could just explain how we grade levels of suffering and in particular which one is more real than the others. Maybe even grade every type of suffering, so we can all see which one is offensive to compare to the other type of suffering. Maybe we should lay out a description for “propaganda” too.
I mean I would say they probably don’t know because they aren’t sapient, but sure.
You aren’t going to change industrialized factory farming abuse by berating and lecturing people on Lemmy. People are just going to be more annoyed by your cause. I don’t even entirely disagree with you, to be honest.
No, I’m not going to change my messaging. There are many other vegans both on Lemmy, on social media, and IRL that probably have different messaging than me in this one instance. Hell, I probably will have different messaging from post to post and conversation to conversation.
But in my opinion, this conversation violates my beliefs so much that I need to retaliate.
If you have something you care about, let me see how you react. “The live streamed Holocaust in Gaza right now isn’t bad because the Palestinians want this”. I’m not sure if you’re for or against Palestinian resistance, but if you take the thinking in this thread and apply it elsewhere, it’s fucking psychotic.
How do we know cows have no conception of rape? Or no conception of when their children, right after being born, are taken away from them, never to be seen again?
Just like we know there’s no teacup orbiting Saturn.
Are there biological imperatives for them to protect their calves? Absolutely. That doesn’t mean they’re cognisant of “never being able to see their children again”. They don’t have a concept of “never”.
I’m willing to change my mind if you wrangle up some evidence of superintelligent bovines.
How do you know they’re not cognizant? Where’s your evidence for that claim?
It’s funny how if you choose to go vegan, you avoid this moral dilemma altogether. But of course you carnists and omnis fantasize realities that shift blame away from you.
Remember: it is you that enables the animal slave industry to exist, even the subsidies from the government that prop up this immoral industry. Voting with your ballet and wallet to end this unethical enslavement is the bare minimum to call yourself an “empathetic” human.
How do you know they’re not cognizant? Where’s your evidence for that claim?
Incredible claims require incredible support.
How do you know that by saying that, you have NOT angered my invisible dragon who cums invisible and ethereal cum who is currently raping you with their massive invisible cock? Why aren’t you protesting? Are you consenting to sex with a violent (yet invisible) dragon?
Remember: it is you that enables the animal slave industry to exist, even the subsidies from the government that prop up this immoral industry.
No it isn’t. It’s you. Your moronic bullshit makes a whole lot of people just buy US based factory farmed dairy as protest.
Me on the other hand, I don’t believe in simplistic and childish ideologies, unlike you. I’m against factory farming, but I’m not so stupid as to support some moronic black-and-white ideology like veganism which can’t even state it’s premise without it’s absolutism making it irrational.
Also, you’re ethnocentric as fuck, meaning you’re more than likely American.
I’ve done more for animal rights than you ever will.
Try telling that to the fascist Israelis committing a live stream Holocaust.
People are either receptive or not. Activists can choose how to communicate their message. Just because it doesn’t work for you, that doesn’t mean it won’t work for others.
… in threads like this, people like you always get downvoted, and people saying spreading the message via exaggeration doesn’t work gets upvoted. Unless you think the only people who matter don’t vote, the data (and common sense) is against you.
You cite data. What’s your data that proves that singular attack vectors at persuading populations works best, compared to multiple vectors?
And what common sense? Eating meat, and using animals in general for our purposes, is serving as one of the largest contributors to climate change, to water overuse, to nitrogen and fertilizer runoff that kills ocean life, to heart disease (red meat specifically), and to cancer (UN classifies red meat as a carcinogen).
Seems to me that your “common sense” is willful ignorance at the pleasure of others’ suffering, both on an acute and obtuse level.
I do agree with you that this is common. Most societies today are not vegan. Hell, most aren’t pro-Palestinian, or at least the governments aren’t. That latter example is changing, thankfully.
The mistake is thinking that this is about creating a successful movement and real change, when veganism is actually often a tool to allow one to believe they are personally morally superior to others.
The more people that participate and agree with them, the less effective it is at making them feel better than others, so it actually requires excluding and belittling people rather than convincing them.
Whether someone reads both of our comments is not up to us. There are likely many non-vocal lurkers on this post and on Lemmy in general that have their opinions swayed by the users that are vocal.
My motivation to voice my opinion is the same as yours in this matter.
And bud, that ain’t common sense. That’s a reflexive mechanism since people don’t like being told they’re wrong, bad, or immoral. Doesn’t change the fact that they still are. What IS common sense is recognizing our capacity to do evil in this world, and lessening that. Veganism aims to do just that. Don’t see you providing any alternatives
I wasn’t comparing. The person before me made a generalized statement. I used an example to contradict their statement.
Besides, the technology that came out of the Holocaust, gas chambers, without a doubt is used on a large scale today in exterminating domesticated animals. See this trailer for a documentary whose creator place cameras inside a pig gas chamber.
And fuck you. Let me guess, you’re someone who doesn’t compared the Holocaust to what’s happening in Palestine because it isn’t 1-to-1
The former involves eradicating the entire ethnic population of a region. The latter involves eradicating a continuously regenerating population of victims, bred for slaughter.
In fact, animal slaughter might be worse than genocide if you think that humans control certain domesticated animals species to be bred to die. With genocide, the idea isn’t to regenerate the ethnic population: it’s to get rid of them for good.
The tactics used to accomplish the two are exactly the same, if only in tone of force used. We don’t use bombs to slaughter animals, but we do cut their throats, shoot them, make them feel fear, kick them, gas them. With genocides, it’s the bombs, bullets, and gas chambers that have historically and contemporarily executed genocide. Between both cases, however, is violence done to helpless populations with no capacity for self defense.
Because I said “animal rape?” How dare I state blatantly where the beloved dairy products come from, the horror!
So you do know what the incorrect and absurd exaggeration was, after all.
I’m with this guy.
Also I think even if they want to make the most forfecul point possible, I don’t think talking about consent is the greatest thing.
Should really impress the fact that they’re won’t produce milk unless they’ve been pregnant. So dairy cows are kept pregnant as much as possible. They live like five years then collapse of exhaustion and get carted to the slaughterhouse.
The cows my late grandma tended to in her youth lived like 20 years.
Industrial intensive farming is immoral as fuck but I can’t really pretend like the cow understands sexual assault.
They don’t have to “understand it” they feel it. Stop defending the rape of cows.
Its also an insult to actual rape victims to equate artificial insemination of a cow with rape. Just using their real suffering as propaganda to push an agenda
Good point.
Have you ever been forcefully impregnated before?
Have you even had your recent new born separated from you and made orphan?
Just because the sexual act isn’t between the same species, and because the subordinate doesn’t resist, doesn’t make it any more wrong.
And how do you know that cows DON’T resist being artificially inseminated? How do you know you can generalize?
First two questions: False equivalency, I am not livestock.
Last question: It’s interesting that you have such extreme views without seeming to know anything about it. You should probably inform yourself and learn something about dairy, before choosing an extreme and naive conviction. I know the cows do not resist because they are artificially inseminated while in estrus.
Your application of false equivalency here just cements my idea of you. You’re egocentric and anthropocentrist, and only care about the human species for moral consideration. You’re no different to me than the fascists in power the world over that seek to dominate minority groups.
Cows have a variety of responses to being artificially inseminated. Because of this, farmers have adopted different tactics to force them to submit, whether that’s using drugs, stun guns, cages that don’t allow the cows to flee. Whether cows resist, which is possible, or they submit doesn’t matter. They are still raped at the end of the day.
If YOU know so much about the dairy industry, then you either know the answers to this debate and choose to ignore them because it makes you look bad, or you ignore the reality altogether and tell yourself bedtime stories to cope with your already existing immoral habits.
Yep, gotta make everything black and white in order to process the world. Very healthy “if you eat dairy you’re a fascist” 😂 It’s at that ridiculous statement that someone capable of self reflection would realize they are wrong. Your childish naivety is showing.
If you can’t see how domesticating animals is a form of fascism, just applied to non-humans, then I can’t save you. You’re reinforcing your pre-existing beliefs by insulating yourself with lies. Do me and all rape victims a favor: learn about the evil and corrupt animal ag industry, and its effects on both humans and animals. You’ll come back with a stronger sense of morality than whatever flimsy shit you call yours now
It’s hard to express how weird a statement this is…
You’re stating cows experience no “real” suffering, which is verifiably false.
I had you tagged as “confidently incorrect” for some reason from a long time ago, so thanks for confirming that’s still valid.
That’s describes them accurately.
no, they’re right (on this topic, anyway)
Well that’s ironic, given that you just tried to say I stated “cows experience no real suffering”, which is obviously ridiculous… probably another thing you should stop doing if you want people to support your side or take you seriously.
Well I’m glad we cleared that position up. Now if you could just explain how we grade levels of suffering and in particular which one is more real than the others. Maybe even grade every type of suffering, so we can all see which one is offensive to compare to the other type of suffering. Maybe we should lay out a description for “propaganda” too.
Does the victim have to understand sexual assault in order for an action to be so?
How do we know that cows DON’T understand it???
Holy SHIT the speciesism on this post is RAMPANT
I mean I would say they probably don’t know because they aren’t sapient, but sure.
You aren’t going to change industrialized factory farming abuse by berating and lecturing people on Lemmy. People are just going to be more annoyed by your cause. I don’t even entirely disagree with you, to be honest.
No, I’m not going to change my messaging. There are many other vegans both on Lemmy, on social media, and IRL that probably have different messaging than me in this one instance. Hell, I probably will have different messaging from post to post and conversation to conversation.
But in my opinion, this conversation violates my beliefs so much that I need to retaliate.
If you have something you care about, let me see how you react. “The live streamed Holocaust in Gaza right now isn’t bad because the Palestinians want this”. I’m not sure if you’re for or against Palestinian resistance, but if you take the thinking in this thread and apply it elsewhere, it’s fucking psychotic.
😂🤡
Thanks for showing us all how much of a clown YOU are
deleted by creator
I think it’s more about the vaginal penetration that this vegan is talking about than fondling some nipples, but the point still stands, yeah.
How do we know cows have no conception of rape? Or no conception of when their children, right after being born, are taken away from them, never to be seen again?
Just like we know there’s no teacup orbiting Saturn.
Are there biological imperatives for them to protect their calves? Absolutely. That doesn’t mean they’re cognisant of “never being able to see their children again”. They don’t have a concept of “never”.
I’m willing to change my mind if you wrangle up some evidence of superintelligent bovines.
How do you know they’re not cognizant? Where’s your evidence for that claim?
It’s funny how if you choose to go vegan, you avoid this moral dilemma altogether. But of course you carnists and omnis fantasize realities that shift blame away from you.
Remember: it is you that enables the animal slave industry to exist, even the subsidies from the government that prop up this immoral industry. Voting with your ballet and wallet to end this unethical enslavement is the bare minimum to call yourself an “empathetic” human.
Incredible claims require incredible support.
How do you know that by saying that, you have NOT angered my invisible dragon who cums invisible and ethereal cum who is currently raping you with their massive invisible cock? Why aren’t you protesting? Are you consenting to sex with a violent (yet invisible) dragon?
No it isn’t. It’s you. Your moronic bullshit makes a whole lot of people just buy US based factory farmed dairy as protest.
Me on the other hand, I don’t believe in simplistic and childish ideologies, unlike you. I’m against factory farming, but I’m not so stupid as to support some moronic black-and-white ideology like veganism which can’t even state it’s premise without it’s absolutism making it irrational.
Also, you’re ethnocentric as fuck, meaning you’re more than likely American.
I’ve done more for animal rights than you ever will.
I don’t know if I should or the one to tell you this, but the milking itself isn’t the rape they’re referring to.
The rape has nothing to do with the utters.
Please 🙏 do your own research here
Apparently it doesn’t bother you that you make veganism look bad since you chose to be sarcastic like that. You’re actively preventing veganism
Are you a vegan?
If not, who are you to say you know what’s best for our movement?
Activism from all sides is important to the cause. You downplaying this Lemming’s activism is serving to silence their voice
If anyone would know best, it’d be someone you’re trying to convince. Shit take
Try telling that to the fascist Israelis committing a live stream Holocaust.
People are either receptive or not. Activists can choose how to communicate their message. Just because it doesn’t work for you, that doesn’t mean it won’t work for others.
Exactly watch all these carnists act like they understand activism than the actual vegans.
… in threads like this, people like you always get downvoted, and people saying spreading the message via exaggeration doesn’t work gets upvoted. Unless you think the only people who matter don’t vote, the data (and common sense) is against you.
You cite data. What’s your data that proves that singular attack vectors at persuading populations works best, compared to multiple vectors?
And what common sense? Eating meat, and using animals in general for our purposes, is serving as one of the largest contributors to climate change, to water overuse, to nitrogen and fertilizer runoff that kills ocean life, to heart disease (red meat specifically), and to cancer (UN classifies red meat as a carcinogen).
Seems to me that your “common sense” is willful ignorance at the pleasure of others’ suffering, both on an acute and obtuse level.
I do agree with you that this is common. Most societies today are not vegan. Hell, most aren’t pro-Palestinian, or at least the governments aren’t. That latter example is changing, thankfully.
Common sense is when you come at people like this, they don’t listen. That’s why I won’t read your comments and probably no one else will either.
The mistake is thinking that this is about creating a successful movement and real change, when veganism is actually often a tool to allow one to believe they are personally morally superior to others.
The more people that participate and agree with them, the less effective it is at making them feel better than others, so it actually requires excluding and belittling people rather than convincing them.
Whether someone reads both of our comments is not up to us. There are likely many non-vocal lurkers on this post and on Lemmy in general that have their opinions swayed by the users that are vocal.
My motivation to voice my opinion is the same as yours in this matter.
And bud, that ain’t common sense. That’s a reflexive mechanism since people don’t like being told they’re wrong, bad, or immoral. Doesn’t change the fact that they still are. What IS common sense is recognizing our capacity to do evil in this world, and lessening that. Veganism aims to do just that. Don’t see you providing any alternatives
Speedrun comparing anti-veganism to the Holocaust any% WR
I wasn’t comparing. The person before me made a generalized statement. I used an example to contradict their statement.
Besides, the technology that came out of the Holocaust, gas chambers, without a doubt is used on a large scale today in exterminating domesticated animals. See this trailer for a documentary whose creator place cameras inside a pig gas chamber.
And fuck you. Let me guess, you’re someone who doesn’t compared the Holocaust to what’s happening in Palestine because it isn’t 1-to-1
Nah, I’m pro Palestine. I just think comparing the genocide to animal slaughter is a little tone deaf.
How is genocide different than animal slaughter?
The former involves eradicating the entire ethnic population of a region. The latter involves eradicating a continuously regenerating population of victims, bred for slaughter.
In fact, animal slaughter might be worse than genocide if you think that humans control certain domesticated animals species to be bred to die. With genocide, the idea isn’t to regenerate the ethnic population: it’s to get rid of them for good.
The tactics used to accomplish the two are exactly the same, if only in tone of force used. We don’t use bombs to slaughter animals, but we do cut their throats, shoot them, make them feel fear, kick them, gas them. With genocides, it’s the bombs, bullets, and gas chambers that have historically and contemporarily executed genocide. Between both cases, however, is violence done to helpless populations with no capacity for self defense.