• Jo Miran@lemmy.ml
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    1 month ago

    Not disagreeing that the US does a lot of fuckery in the middle east but I think it’s ultimately the UK that started the mess.

    EDIT: West Texas is pretty empty. Israel can have it all.

      • geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml
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        1 month ago

        Youtube videos are a disaster in historical accuracy.

        The Ottoman empire was stable. They had beef with Armenia. But that only turned into the Armenian genocide after the Turks turned secular.

        The empire was not a beacon of wealth but it was nothing like the crackpot the middle east has turned into since British and French colonialism.

        • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          that only turned into the Armenian genocide after the Turks turned secular.

          They never turned secular while still being Ottoman Empire. It was formally a Caliphate. The Ottoman Sultan called himself Caliph among other things. It had “nations” separated on religious basis inside, with their own governing hierarchy etc.

          There was a short era of Tanzimat, which is treated by people ignorant of history as some sort of it turning into a civilized state, but it was still monarchy, and Christians were still slaves. It was, however, enough for Muslims to feel a lot of hate because of even the appearance of some kind of emancipation.

          • geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml
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            1 month ago

            I had to do a double check on my history. What I said is correct but not “technically correct.”

            The CUP which primarily consisted of The Young Turks was the organisation spearheading the Armenian genocide. They were also the organisation responsible for the Turkish revolution.

            The genocide did technically happen under the Ottoman empire, but it was led by the CUP group who overthrew the empire.

            Their primary group The Young Turks then conflated into the party of Ataturk which was responsible for secular Turkey.

            • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              was the organisation spearheading the Armenian genocide.

              Turks like that narrative, but the Armenian genocide honestly incorporates Hamidian massacres and many other massacres before.

              • geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml
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                1 month ago

                It is undeniable the Ottoman empire was complicit and participated in the Armenian genocide. However this was never standard practice before the end of the empire. And it was led by groups which took over the empire.

                This does not absolve the Ottoman empire of blame for it. They still did do dun it. But there is a clear direct correlation between the rise of the CUP from within its ranks and its sudden urge for race driven genocides.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Ottoman_genocides

                The late Ottoman genocides is a historiographical theory which sees the concurrent Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian genocides[1][2][3] that occurred during the 1910s–1920s as parts of a single event rather than separate events, which were initiated by the Young Turks

                • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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                  1 month ago

                  There is a correlation, but massacres of civilian population were nothing unusual for the Ottoman Empire of any time.

      • tetris11@lemmy.ml
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        1 month ago

        The Ottomans were quite permissive of other cultures, you just has to pay higher tax as a non-muslim, but they left you in peace.

        After the British conspired to incite uprisings in the Ottomans, that’s when they came down hard on their subjects to quell any further uprisings (it didn’t work)

        • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          you just has to pay higher tax as a non-muslim, but they left you in peace.

          No they didn’t leave you in peace, just the tax part wasn’t optional.

            • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              Da fuck is dat.

              I knew Britannica was low, but not that low. Holy shit.

              (For those who didn’t follow the link) The main ethnic conflict problem of the Ottoman Empire was apparently not perpetual small-scale extermination of Christians and Yazidis, but the fact that some Christians still existed in, ya knaw, Eastern Roman, Assyrian and Armenian lands, and to flavor that turd they wrote something about blood libel against Jews - in the Ottoman empire, o-ho-ho.

        • chaogomu@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          That was mostly England. The Balfour Declaration kicked it all off, and then post WW1 British Colonialism locked it in, even though the people who founded Israel were actively fighting England to do so.

  • the_crotch@sh.itjust.works
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    1 month ago

    Utah? We should have created it in Germany. We were already partitioning the country, they started the Holocaust which necessitated a Jewish homeland, and most of the people who would move to Israel were from Europe and used to its climate.

    • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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      1 month ago

      Yep, shoulda just done this

      That said the zionist movement predates WW2, and the balfour declaration is one of the major culprits, so carving out half of england would’ve also been a solution.

      • Zyratoxx@lemm.ee
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        1 month ago

        Jokes aside if it was only about having a safe space for the jewish they would have taken the Jewish Autonomous Oblast but they wanted that specific region for historical reasons and that is why they would have rejected the South German State of Israel the same way they ultimately rejected the Jewish Autonomous Oblast and by shrinking the German State (East and West combined compared to the Weimar Republic) to 1/3 of their previous size you would effectively end up with some hybrid form of the Palestine problem and the Donbass problem.

        Personally I would have chosen an island like Sardegna where random invasions from your neighbours are unlikely but I think at the end they’d still have resettled Palestine even if you gave them the whole of Britain.

      • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        Half is maybe too much, but a portion of Bavaria bordering Austria and Czechoslovakia would make sense. With a piece of Danube too. Looks nice and useful for transportation of goods.

  • Death_Equity@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    God didn’t give the Jews Utah, they got from the Nile in Egypt to the Euphrates in Iraq. So say the magic scrolls.

    Which should pretty much be understood as the Zionist goal to claim as the lands of Israel. They will not stop until they have it. They will keep doing incremental land grabs after wars that they goad others into starting, as they have done with Palestine.

    • Avg@lemm.ee
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      1 month ago

      US is not free of blame of course but it was the colonial powers that ruled the region who intentionally started the fire.

      • Crashumbc@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        That area has been the subject of war and destruction since it was first settled thousands of years ago. The colonial powers and later the US didn’t help but let’s not act like that area was ever anything but an ongoing war.

  • Geobloke@lemm.ee
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    1 month ago

    Well too be fair, Lawrence of Arabia tapped into existing resentment up forment his revolt

    There’s always been differing interests in the middle east, whether it’s religious, ethnic or something else. To say otherwise takes away from the agency of the people living there

  • harrys_balzac@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    1 month ago

    At one point, Grand Island (NY) was proposed as a Jewish homeland. Definitely not enough room.

    Definitely way too many people in Utah. The environment here is stressed. Not even talking about the political environment. Already way too many religious extremists.

  • ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml
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    1 month ago

    We kind of did create israel in utah. But for people who thought Jesus came over to America with the pilgrims and that they have magic underwear that will shield them from harm rather than for the people who thought that their God told them to cut part of their kids’ penises off, they couldn’t eat shellfish, and used to commit genocides on the reg but has inexplicably stopped for the last couple thousand years or so.