Damn, never though I’d say this, but I think China is gonna save capitalism from itself.
China is better at capitalism than the US is.
China is better at capitalism than anyone else is. It’s not even close.
The United States greatly prefers that corporations be in charge of the government to government be in charge of corporations.
Not much difference in the outcome for the general population.
That‘s a reach, if I ever saw one. China lifted more than 800 million people out of poverty, and in fact eradicated poverty at all. Last I heard, their standard of living just closely missed being in the high income countries category. Their trajectory is in complete contrast to the declining Western empire.
China is better at capitalism, because it‘s their only play to stay sovereign and overcome this predatory system completely. They have to prove to the capitalist world, that their system and long term development is superior and it‘s only beneficial for the world to follow their transition towards socialism to enable prosperity for all humankind, not just the global north. Not gonna happen under capitalism, especially not under the US or the EU.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
20% youth unemployment and this tankie is posting this lmao
This is just not true for an enormous number of people. The wealth disparity is striking. The ones who are making it are making it, but it is nowhere near everyone.
Disparity is rising in China with the development of the private sector, but it is fundamentally true that the CPC primarily focuses on developing the living conditions for the working classes:
Essentially, capitalists are winning the most, but the CPC ensures that more than anything the lives of the working classes are focused on. Additionally, as the private sector grows, it gets increasingly controlled and subsumed into the public sector. The privledge capitalists have rest on a dying basis because their purpose is to facilitate development towards higher levels of socialism, through developing the productive forces more rapidly. This is the tradeoff China made, and its working.
Unless you are Tibetan or Uyghur.
I try not to let US state department propaganda narratives dictate my perspective on their geopolitical adversaries.
Sure and Tiananmen Square never happened.
Well none of this (including the price) would be happening without massive government subsidies so I’m not sure here is the place to take a victory lap for capitalism due to artificially low prices designed to win market share abroad, but okay.
My guess is that these Chinese manufacturers will kill the old automakers that are in rapid decline after decades of low quality products at high prices.
I don’t know if the Chinese brands have good quality but they’re priced lower than the expensive low quality trash that’s already on the market from all the other automakers.
Free market? Not like that!
Don’t worry, I’m sure there’s another bailout and another cash for clunkers with a side of tariffs getting cooked up by some lobbyist to get passed by some paid off politicians. They are already trying to/already have pass(ed) a complete ban on Chinese autos. Knock knock, they are already on both borders.
sell cheap to kill competition around the world. leverage new global monopoly for fun and profits later.
They use this same tactic over and over and I find it surprising that more people don’t immediately recognize what they’re doing.
I guess it’s just more enticing than “maximise profits for the few even if it means the planet dying”. All western auto makers can get squeezed for all I care. I’d buy their products, but they spent a decade sabotaging it and making sure it keeps spewing poison.
I have no pity for toxic companies that fought tooth and nail against EV development. The tactic works because it’s taking advantage of a broken system.
This. I’m all for competition and innovation, but this is subsidized by the Chinese government to exploit a lack of manufacturing in other countries.
If you’ve heard about how food or clothing donations harm local farmers and weavers, same principle. We should be encouraging domestic production around the world, not allowing one country to undercut everyone else.
China has been playing the long game for 30+ years. When you have actual history and strategy(and unlimited exploitable labor( you’d be amazed what you can accomplish.
China is doing exactly what other countries and corporations do to establish and compete in markets.
Let me repeat it: China is doing exactly what other countries and corporations do to establish and compete in markets.
And because it doesn’t ever seem to sink in: China is doing exactly what other countries and corporations do to establish and compete in markets.
Newsflash: Sinophobia is not an economic strategy.
Edit: "“All for competition and innovation” The United States barred China from buying the latest NVIDIA chips to keep it out of AI. Typical American racist scapegoating.
This thread is so fucking ignorant and choking on MAGA propaganda. Look this up idiots: the US of A has subsidized Detroit far more than China in the auto industry and BYD was heavily invested by US investors like Warren Buffet.
Warren Buffet bought 10% of BYD because US options were all losers. From 2008 to 2022 he made $8.75B.
This sub has USG-sponsored China fear mongering posted multiple times a day.
Yeah and it’s bad when other countries do it too
Nah. It’s just another rug pull in preparation. Undercut prices until the competition breaks, then fuck things up with your monopoly. We’re in the undercutting prices phase, but the Chinese will want to have their fair share of interest on the subsidies they use use to do that right now. It’s the same old fucking capitalism again and nothing is saved from it.
Yeah. Companies running on state subsidies competing with others who are not is not capitalism “working”, it’s just another rug pull leaving us all fucked.
I guess in this fantasy scenario of yours, the United States is the one that doesn’t subsidize the auto industry? lol
I love how criticizing the Chinese car industry leads people to asssume I love the American one.
The US hasn’t produced a decent car since the 60s. I don’t even factor them into the calculation.
I didn’t say you loved it, I asked if you didn’t think it was subsidized.
Not to the same degree or in the same way. In the US the name of the game is to have companies run themselves into the ground to line the pockets of CEOs and investors, and then the state bailing them out every time because of jobs and national pride.
I’m sure there are other systems in place as well, but frankly I don’t care. Teslas are pretty much the only American cars you’ll see in Europe, and they’ve been subsidized by European countries to promote the electronic transition.
In short, I don’t think about American cars at all.
Everyone said this would happen when Japanese cars started being sold in the US. It never happened.
Detroit isn’t even trying to compete.
They’ll be banned faster than you can memorize the spelling of Xiaomi. At least in the US, where we make sure the old inefficient companies stay afloat despite their incompetence.
They’ve been banned lol, like for decades
So you think the entire world’s auto manufacturers outside of China are incompetent and inefficient? People always act like the only vehicles sold in the US are domestic brands when they don’t even make up a majority here.
Well I wouldn’t say they’re all incompetent but look at how glacial all the “traditional” car companies have become. These guys are innovating at a speed never seen before while your traditional car manufacturers are stumbling over themselves trying to keep up.
On the german side, just take a look at BMW and how long it took for them to come up with a competent electric platform. They just got their first car on a good platform (the new X3). Mercedes still doesn’t have a good EV, and neither does Audi. Their etron is outdated.
Moving to the Japanese brands. I know Toyota isn’t focused on EVs at all and their hybrid is top notch so they’re one of the better ones out there. But no one else is even close. Not in terms of value for money. Not in terms of tech.
The only ones that get close are Tesla because, like the Chinese, they’re running their car companies like tech companies and not car companies.
What innovations are lacking specifically? I dont know of any features unique to Chinese brands. It seems more like you think every company should only be selling EVs for dirt cheap prices, but that isn’t realistic becausw those aren’t real prices and EVs aren’t yet practical for everyone which is why they make up such a small percentage of sales here still (though this number climbs with each quarter).
Corrupted by the oil industry and colluding together would be a better term. Someone please stop China, they are destroying the “EVs are luxury vehicles only” gimmick.
Well, in Germany VW (the second largest automobile manufacturer in the world) now is laying off a significant portion of their employees, closing factories and even selling them off to US/Israeli weapons manufacturers. Their head also already signaled VW is being open to switch to weapons manufacturing. Pretty sure other German brands are in similar peril.
Traditional manufacturers are dead.
They chose to actively ignore EV technology. Despite 80-100 years of manufacturing , they got overtaken by China in just 15 years.
You mean Volks “we don’t even make an effort for our cars to obbey emission rules and instead we cheated” wagen is having trouble staying afloat?!
I wonder how such a high quality company which was not at all doing funny business and using political connections is having trouble competing with those who just offer better products at lower prices …
Volkswagen has made a ton of dumb mistakes, but among the worst are paying union wages and not getting super cheap lithium batteries from being located in a country that has a well integrated supply chain.
We don’t want to mine or refine lithium as much in the EU because “boohoo muh environment” but really, if we want to compete with China we can’t let the environment be a deciding factor. Mine and refine all the resources we need instead of buying them from China and letting them dictate the prices. China doesn’t give a fuck about small issues standing in its way and neither should we.
“We can’t let the environment be a deciding factor” is a preposterous take. There’s practically nothing more important that preserving the environment. Even the Chinese are looking beyond their borders for raw materials these days. If it costs more to extract raw materials in a way that doesn’t fuck up the environment, then subsidize it and pay for it. We can fund the subsidies with a carbon tax.
It’s not a preposterous take for China. They do whatever it takes to win and it shows. Lower wages, less considerations for the environment, etc.
Everything we care about has a cost. If we want the cheapest possible EVs, which most people here seem to want, then we need to ignore everything else. So you decide. Do you want super cheap EVs, or do you want good working conditions and limited pollution? And if it’s the latter, tariffs on Chinese EVs make sense because they do not adhere by the same rules.
Chinese cars are heavily subsidized by the state. The reason they’re so cheap is because China bets it can squeeze the competition out of the market before charging basically whatever they want.
I’ve seen Starbucks do the same thing to independent coffee shops.
Chinese cars are heavily subsidized by the state. The reason they’re so cheap is because China bets it can squeeze the competition
Used to be, to get them going, robotics, innovation and vertical integration is most of the reason now. An example, BYD have their own roro ships and have ordered another 10,
https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/byd-orders-10-more-car-carriers-export-push-accelerates
and the new ships will be built in China
they make their own batteries, electric motors etc and have massive robotic assembly plants.
To suggest the reason why is because it’s not a level playing field is ludicrous, the US spends many billions subsidizing car manufacturers on top of the billions us consumers spend in subsidizing them. directly.
And yet even at 2-3x the price, the Chinese EVs provide a better value than the handful of the American options they would compete against.
This SUV would be competing with the likes of a high end EV option like Lucid or Tesla. The Lucid Gravity starts a around $70k, and the Tesla Model X (now discontinued) was around $92k.
The Xiaomi SU7 (the car the Ford CEO has driven since 2024, despite being banned in the US) starts at $32k and clearly is targeted to compete the Porsche Taycan at $112k.
The vehicle in this article has heated floors, a projector, a pop-up roof, a fridge, swiveling seats, and over 1,000 miles of range. Functions western companies consider “luxury” are basically just standard in the Chinese market like heated and ventilated seats. They don’t even bother to advertise things like that because it’s a minimum expectation. There are zero western options that come close to something like that. The options available in the US suck, even taking industry subsidies into account.
heated floors, a projector, a pop-up roof, a fridge, swiveling seats,
Never have I once thought I needed any of that bullshit.
it seems to want it to be like a compact RV rather than a SUV
because all of those does sound like something you want in an RV
And yet there it is, along with basically every other “luxury” feature western companies save for high end models… all for the price of a base model SUV here.
Those aren’t luxury car features (minus the fridge), those are camper van features lol
The point is that what western car companies consider “luxury” features they charge extra for, like heated seats and that sort of thing, are basically standard there. So the luxury features they include to separate these models from the pack are these more niche things.
High-end EV options
Ok
like Tesla
…fucking WHAT?
I see you forget about the first 3 models that Tesla made that were $70k or higher when they were discontinued, and all launched at $90k+
They were only high-end EVs because the EV market was dogshit then. They’ve never competed with high-end cars in general.
Unfortunately it’s a race to the bottom and high-end cars are doing the same Tesla bullshit of a minimalist interior with a huge display instead of physical buttons with heft like they used to.
Chinese cars are heavily subsidized by the state
Detroit has received $88B in subsidies and loans since 2008. That’s why we have so many cheap EV options?
Heavily subsidized by misery, as well.
Detroit pays union wages and has to respect worker rights (at the top end of the supply chain). The “communist “ state seems to escape these limited obligations in big parts of their supply chains.
Workers in Detroit might get paid union wages, but many auto factories have relocated to the South where they can underpay and abuse workers much more easily. I just did some quick googling and it seems like being a factory worker in China isn’t bad compared to in the US. They work in highly automated, clean, air-conditioned spaces like would be found here. Dirty conditions and manual labor are no longer compatible with today’s automotive quality requirements. Low level workers make modest wages, but they employ a bunch of engineers and technicians just like here in the US, and they have subsidized cafeterias and some provide housing or stipends for housing. You might criticize the expectation of working significant overtime, but I’ve worked in factories which had mandatory overtime in the US, so that sort of structural coercion isn’t unique to China. Compared to a “right to work” state, Chinese workers have stronger protections from being laid off or fired. The main downside seems to be lax enforcement of safety standards. If the government doesn’t notice something unsafe on its own, there isn’t a Chinese version of dropping a hint to OSHA.
Now further upstream in the supply chain? No thanks. That’s where you’ll find abysmal working conditions. Just remember there are good reasons our government wants us to believe everything sucks for workers in China.
Oh yes, and even plum union jobs for floor workers in Windsor or Brampton can be kind of shit too, especially in some of the parts factories.
I expect that from hypercapitalist oligarch-run societies. I don’t expect it from vanguard countries. It’s a betrayal.
American car companies (and American built cars) get subsidies from the US, Canada, and Mexico as all three form a single manufacturing chain. They simply have had a different set of priorities that allowed newcomers to eat their lunch, like it happens to any complacent industry.
Frankly, american cars could use a knockdown. Tesla was our only real hope, and we would have glided into a strong Tesla and EV empire if conservative dems didn’t bail out GM, Chrysler, and Ford.
I’d say, let their stuff in. Lets get some good cheap and subsidizes vehicles from China on the condition that they don’t raise car prices by more than 2% a year.
American companies will more than likely fall on their face and hopefully die. Making room for a new american car company to take their place.
Oh yeah, because US car companies are NOT subsidized at all /s
Both statements can be true at the same time. But the scale of one is many times larger.
China’s MO from rare earths and magnets to cars to silicon follows the same plan. Take IP, Subsidize the industry, Research, once you have a monopoly use it to squeeze adversaries.
I will say at least China is willing to kill off underperforming companies.
The US needs to let a lot of legacy companies that aren’t performing die off. It also needs to break up oligopolies in many industries. Why compete when you can buy up the future competitors and set prices with a handful of competitors. The financialization of our economy is choking us.
Sure, but try launching a new auto startup here. It’s a lot harder than in China.
Wrong. US manufacturers have effectively been shut out of China. But not before they made investments that China basically stole.
effectively been shut out of China.
Because Chinese won’t buy massive thirsty trucks. Wtf…Tesla was in China before they even started making EVs.
There’s a lot of protectionism going on in China, most western manufacturers aren’t allowed to sell their own cars without a Chinese company owning the majority of the partnership. Most countries don’t really have rules like that, China is kinda unique.
The Chinese actually LOVE big cars. Every other European manufacturer makes long wheelbase versions of their midrange sedans for China exclusively. Space in the back is a status symbol more than comfort up front apparently. And there are a ton of big Chinese crossovers out now. I won’t call them SUVs because they’re not really off road capable, much like most western “SUVs” aren’t these days.
Who would want a US made car?
Even Americans don’t want them.
I worked in the government for a bit, national park service if it matters, we were only allowed to use US made vehicles.
Constant recalls, constant breakdowns, overall unreliable. These were all vehicles that were less than 5 years okd
I have a 2007 toyota today that refuses to die and has barely needed any work. I’ll probably have it at least another 3 to 5 years at this rate.
American cars are shit
American capitalism has rendered companies incapable of producing anything that’s not crap at a scale because they need to maximise profit at all costs, while quality doesn’t mean shit. Every company is Boeing.
It’s very possible your Toyota was maser in the US.
Worked at an oil refinery in the US. All the company cars were Ford. They all had various issues such as lights not working, the reverse beeper not working, constant engine light. We would get a loaner ford to replace our fleet ford and the loaner would fucking die. It would be comical if it wasn’t my safety being jeopardized.
Depends on what you mean by American. Most assume you are referring to Ford or GM. But Tesla and Rivian are US made. Many are built in the States by non US companies. BMW, Volvo, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia.
Tesla and Rivian are US made
Chinese batteries and many parts from Canada and Mexico.
The thing is, if the American government wants to be protectionist against Chinese cars, IMHO they need to pass legally binding legislation to force US car manufacturers to meet or exceed what the Chinese cars are offering and then directly subsidize the cost of those vehicles to the consumer, freely, with no stipulations. The punishment for failure to meet and exceed those expectations should be bankruptcy through immediate removal of the protectionist mechanisms.
The US is too busy licking other corps boots. They do not have enough funds to do it for everyone.
They’d probably need to tax the rich a significant amount of money to do that.
They tried when Japanese cars became popular for being efficient, the US car companies preferred to pretty much abandon the rest of the world and keep the government money.
Time to unleash the storm on these piece of shit American car companies.
Yes, I fear those SUVs but not because that one is cheap, for an SUV but because oversized SUVs kill people (at a much higher rate than regular cars, even those with comparable loading volume).
My eyes definitely fear it
Xiaomi Has a Luxury SUV for $31,000 That All
Western BrandsPederstrians Should FearI always love seeing the headlines that say “west should fear when other countries beat them at their own game”. It’s the same stupid rhetoric that Trump keeps barking about AI and how “we have to beat China”.
Mate, you all fucking caused everything to happen. Where do you see anything that says “Made in USA” anymore? Not that that would mean much today anyway given the shit quality the US has, but seriously.
They’re just making up hysteria based on nothing. Nobody wants to fucking go to an office 5 days a week just to do remote meetings. Nobody wants to be dependent on cars for getting around.
Nobody wants all this forced AI shit in our everyday lives. Just get over it. The endless conquest of world domination held by a handful of influencers is over. The world must change and to start, it must end all of this greedy ass capitalism which only seeks to cause misfortune for the rest of us.
Ross Perot warned everyone. They laughed at his ears.
Yes there were warnings before but his was probably the last chance we had.
Western brands don’t care cause they just lobby to ban them from the west.
In my experience Chinese cars have loads of cool features that sometimes even work.
Sometimes they don’t even try to kill you while driving (often they do)
Kind of like teslas!
Yes.
You’re welcome.
archive.today link :(
Sorry, what’s the problem?
If you can’t reach that resource, it’s your DNS provider being a limp-wristed dick. Change providers.
Archive today was (is? I stopped following the story shortly after it broke) DDoSing some person’s blog. Archive today was also found to be changing some of the content of archived pages.
Poptop camper 😍
And why is it so relatively cheap? Where did they cut corners? Are they spying on you like the cheap Chinese TVs? It can’t be just because it’s government subsidized.
I would prefer no spying. But with the US being a fascist surveillance state run by greedy billionaires, American cars are no better. Either pick one from a functioning liberal country or focus on the tech. China is clearly ahead on tech.
The motive isn’t to extract as much capital out of the customers as possible.
They are spying yes,all the others are too which doesnt make it ok but that is why it is subsidised by the state.
They cut corners on comfort and noise levels from my experience of similar brands
Rather would get spied on by domestic corps than foreign ones.
Why? The domestic corps actually have access to you to use that information. What’s china gonna do with my data that is gonna affect me 12k miles away?
Coorporate with other entitities and then sell a full picture on me to the local authorities?
Idk mate. Honestly.
How about no spying? Can we do that?Sure, but i guess it literally doesn’t affect me if china or intergalactic aliens are spying on me. What affects me is the local govt spying on me.
Interesting viewpoint I have not yet considered.
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Boot licking mentality
Oh so you’d like to rather lick the foreign boot?
Very nice.
American, Russian, Chinese or Israeli?America is israel. I am not the one who showed a preference for which boot to lick.
Very nice avoidance of my question. Then say, which one you’d lick if your life depended on it.
The domestic or the foreign one?Why does my life depend on it?
The Chinese government is subsidizing them to gain market share just like American tech companies do with VC funding.
One way the Chinese government is “subsidizing” their cars is by suppressing the living standards of its people.
That and their industry doesn’t appear to be as bloated and shareholder-driven.
suppressing the living standards of its people.
You mean letting billionaires avoid tax, adding tariffs to everything, and driving up the price of gas?
There are no shareholders because you’d have to be a fool to compete with the Chinese government as an investor. Returns are perpetually suppressed.
JFC Lemmy… BYD is a public company and was originally funded by Warren Buffet. He made almost 9 billion.
Key figures and findings regarding BYD’s government funding include:
The Kiel Institute Study (2018–2022): A widely cited study by Germany’s Kiel Institute for the World Economy estimated that BYD received approximately $3.7 billion (€3.4 billion) in direct government subsidies between 2018 and 2022.
Scaling Support: State aid to the company ramped up significantly over time. For example, out of the $3.7 billion tracked through 2022, a major share—roughly $2.2 billion—was awarded in 2022 alone.
Annual Financial Disclosures: BYD regularly lists government grants, subsidies, and R&D support in its public financial reports. For instance, annual filings have shown billions of yuan in recurring state backing channeled into specific production lines and technological innovations.
Broader Context
While the $3.7 billion figure covers tracked direct corporate aid, international trade analysts and economists point out that BYD’s total structural advantages also stem from wider government policies. These include:
Supply Chain Subsidies: Extensive state backing upstream in the EV supply chain, particularly for battery manufacturers (such as localized support for lithium processing and battery cell production).
Infrastructure and Operational Perks: Access to heavily subsidized land, cheap electricity, and localized tax incentives designed to accelerate China’s green technology and clean energy sectors.
Basically, the only thing the US failed to do from this list was a successful pivot to green technologies and the cheap, abundant electricity they could provide. There were many plans that had plans to process and build lithium batteries, that were dismantled after Trump 2.
It’s not just brands that should fear it, but also people living in cities. Say no to SUVs, even if you “sometimes go to camping, once or twice a year” (yeah, that’s the justification for everyone buying them).
Looks like Rolls-Royce Cullinan from China.
