“But she’s a 500 year old [dragon/elf/vampire/etc] in human form, it’s fine bro.”
Looks like a child, acts like a child, would be considered a child by their own culture/species: That’s a child bro.
I’d like to say I’ve never had that conversation but I have.
“Miss Kobayashi’s Dragon Maid” was fine (though not everyone’s cup of tea) until they started to sexualize the minors (which was basically at the introduction of the child “dragon”). Then I stopped watching it. And from what I hear, I picked a good spot to stop watching as it only got worse from there in regards to the minor characters.
EDIT: I should probably clarify for those that think I support that kind of content, I do not.
It’s been awhile since I watched Dragon Maid but I don’t recall that happening with her, maybe I blacked it out. Well there was the other child that was obsessed with her, I just don’t remember anything sexual. I do know that the relationship between the older big tiddy dragon and that boy feels innapropriate. I remembered while writing there is another child dragon with what I would describe as “bodankahonkaroos”. Maybe you’re right. I also think I recall the mangaka making porn of their characters to boost popularity.
Anime can have relationships between minors without oversexualization, even if that is what the characters are feeling.
It has a wider variety of usage in Japanese than “pedophile” does in English, so no, it’s not always the most accurate translation. For example, “lolicon” (ロリコン) is used self-referentially, sometimes as a joke and sometimes not, in Japan while “pedophile” is basically never used like this in English. It’s also not too uncommon to use it of another person as a relatively lighthearted jab in Japanese, when in English calling someone else a pedophile (or even the more casual pedo) is a grave accusation.
Yes, and it’s also used about actual child predator pedophiles. It’s a word with multiple senses/connotations, and one of those senses corresponds closely with the English word “pedophile” while the others do not. That’s why “pedophile” is not always the correct translation for it – though whether it’s correct in this case I can’t say, as I haven’t watched the anime in question.
If you’re into sexualized (cartoon) children you’re a pedophile, so the translation would be factually correct. That sort of pedophilia just has much less cultural acceptance in English speaking world
That sort of pedophilia just has much less cultural acceptance in English speaking world
Which is why it’s not always the most accurate translation. Part of the job of a translator is to translate cultural nuance, which would be lost here.
It’s a bit like how in English, Epstein wouldn’t call Trump a pedophile, he’d say he “likes them young”. In Japanese he could call him a lolicon and get the same tone.
If the term isn’t meant to be so “heavy” in the original usage, and there isn’t an equivalent “light” term here, I wonder if it would’ve been better to just translate it as “I didn’t realize you were a creep” or something else that misses the nuance, but gets the intended feeling and tone across.
Japan is uncomfortably comfortable with loli shit, and it’s reflected in anime… Which is why anime will never be a family living room activity for me, unless I’ve vetted it to be clean. For example, Death Note is ok, but Dragon Maid is not.
To be an anime fan you have to learn this specific skill where you disassociate during cringe “fan-service” moments and come back to Earth once it’s over.
My favorite personal example of this is Langrisser Mobile. Easily my favorite mobile game ever made with tons of depth to character building and strategy with a genuinely engrossing story full of political intrigue in a fantasy setting. And I can never recommend it to anyone.
This is because certain female characters allow you to perform love confessions to them if you max them out. Almost all female characters (for the first few years) are under 16. You can confess your love to the 10 year old girl and she will promise to keep it a secret till she’s old enough. You can also buy a skin for her where her skin is glistening wet, she shakes her ass at the camera, and wears white, see-through-because-they’re-wet stockings. Why.
Most players are just totally fine with this. And it’s not a rare issue. Just off of the top of my head there’s literally every single anime ever set in a high school, about half of isekai fantasy, almost every modern shonen battle anime. Meanwhile basically every gacha game ever made has you hunting underage girls for sport. It’s wild just how pervasive it is in 2D/3DCG Japanese/Chinese media. (Langrisser Mobile is a Chinese gacha spinoff of a Japanese game series)
Part of the job of a translator is to translate cultural nuance, which would be lost here. That’s what makes the translation inaccurate in some contexts.
That is so weird to me that a society with much more Shame basis for stuff does not shame attraction to and relationships with minors.
On the other hand I’ve always wondered when is shame effective as a social motivator to prevent misdeeds, and when does it push people to hide their problems instead of seeking help and solutions?
Well if the powers that be shamed attraction to and relationships with minors, they would have to accept that forcing themselves on people who aren’t in a position to refuse consent is shameful, and then they would have to answer some very uncomfortable questions about what some of their heroes did in Korea and China …
You make an important distinction. I don’t understand why they wouldn’t consider it immoral when in the west it seems intrinsically immoral to most people.
I’ve read Naomi and Memoirs of a Geisha so Ive had some exposure to some of the cultural ideas, but i guess I’m looking for a scholarly article or educational text explaining the differences
It’s a relatively recent thing in the west, too. Not too long ago (well into the previous century) most girls were married off by their 15th or 16th birthday. “Fun” fact: there’s still a lot of child marriage in the US to this day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States
Japan isn’t actually substantially different in this regard – sure, they have their teen idols, but then so does the US (Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber, what have you) – except they draw a clear line between fictional and real child pornography, both legally and in terms of general attitudes. The legal part isn’t that strange (lolicon material isn’t illegal in most of the US either), but the way general morality permits it in Japan but doesn’t in the US is interesting. My guess is that this is partially explained by the US generally being pretty puritanical when it comes to sexuality, whereas Japan is more liberal about it (in their own way), but that can’t be the only thing because European countries do not have the puritan culture of the US but also don’t share the Japanese tolerance of lolicon.
not intrinsically, at least not for long. in most of europe it was legal up until the 90s and there were even porno mags that ran specials.
…i do compulsive late night wiki walks, before you ask how i know that. i had a period where i read up on what happened to the “flower power” generation with all their “free love” stuff and that came up. i tend to do breadth-first search so i just read through articles while opening all the links in the background, then go down a level, etc etc. when a term like that comes up on a wiki page it triggers your fight-or-flight response.
I don’t have scholarly references or anything, but the standard for this varies massively across cultures. Just looking at the West, the age at which it was thought appropriate to get married used to be wayyy lower than it is now. In Ancient Greece, a particular form of pederasty was celebrated as an especially pure form of relationship.
Nowadays we have robust evidence that sexual activity between an adult and a child is severely harmful. However, even this we can’t legitimately extend too far cross-culturally, because we don’t (as far as I know) have any certainty that this isn’t conferred due to the child being the victim of a socially-defined crime. The question one could ask is: given that Ancient Greece didn’t categorise their form of paedophilia as a violation, did the children in those relationships therefore not suffer in the same way as modern victims of paedophilia? It’s an uncomfortable question, and even asking it will probably make most people nope out, but it’s very useful to be sharp about what we do and don’t know.
And you know that for a fact? I mean, obviously it could be. As far as I know there is no evidence for it, and getting that evidence will be incredibly difficult.
Hence it wouldn’t be “censorship” as the article seems to use the term. Though that doesn’t really apply at all because to “censor” it would be to not include the scene at all or rewrite it to say something else entirely. Saying “you like lolicon” or even just “you’re a pervert” might be considered euphemistic but it’s not censorship.
Per ICD-11, pedophilia can’t be diagnosed if attraction is not acted upon or is distressing the patient. Also it doesn’t count cases where attraction is not primary.
Well no. Pedophilia is the attraction to real children and lolicon is the attraction to illustrations of prepubertal girl like characters that doesn’t even need to be sexual.
There is a big difference between these too.
The translation is also wrong because in Japanese there exist the loanword pedophilia and it was not used in the original so translating it as another existing word is pretty bad.
this isn’t some baudrillard level type of simulacra shit, it’s literally people using cartoons as analogs to their real attractions, so yes, they are pedos.
Well no. Pedophilia in a non medical context is not necessarily about features and mostly about power. Most CSA happens because it is an easy power imbalance, not because the perpetrators are attracted to childrean. For example in many countries with good Internet connections and a low socieoeconomic Standing producers of CSAM are often Mothers that need money for food they themselfs are not pedohiliac - they have a power imbalance and an economic incentive. At the same time the viewers of these live streams are often not pedohiliac too but want an easy victim for their Powerfantasie.
With this popular depiction lolicons are not the same because, as they are only attracted to fictional characters, they will never harm childrean.
In a medical context a pedophile is exclusively or primarily attracted to childrean. Most ppl with pedophilia never harm a child btw. Lolicon on the other hand is not a paraphilia so while you are attracted to fictional childlike characters it has not to be exclusive. From a medical standpoint being sexually attracted to a minor alone is not pedophilia as long as you are as much attracted to non minors. Primary or exclusive attraction is a necessary symptom of pedophilia.
Further in Japanese culture being sexual attracted to post puberty women who have a very childlike demeanor is also considered lolicon. As an example the 24 year old pornstar playing a schoolgirl trope in western porn would also be considered lolicon. A pedohile would be someone that rapes children in person or by proxy. If someone does not understand this difference they are part of the problem.
The amazing digital circus might thank part of its popularity to the nostalgia of the kidcore aesthetic featured troughout the circus.
The adult lead character pomni appears as a clown with little features that we would objectively associate with an adult wonen besides possessing the clear psychological maturity and intelligence of an adult.
The features of pomni could be described as short stature, a bright childlike color scheme, and large eyes relative to the face, a physiological trait often associated with infancy in mammals.
Now for science, is it pedophia to wank off to amazing digital circus porn of pomni and does it make a difference wether its a visual drawing or a text based work of fiction.
My point is not to convince you of annythhing just that your argument itself easily falls apart once one has to define “childlike features” into a legal/moral setting.
It’s a genuine very good youtube series that is rivalling industrial production quality and popularity, i am just using it as a very twisted example. Dont let my description stop you from watching it. Adc characters are not in any way portrayed in a sexual nature, unless you count this.
Well, no, that’s not what it is. It’s young and young-looking characters, not “minor or prepubescent”.
Mind you, plenty lolicon stuff is extremely pedophilic, namely by sexualising prepubescent characters! But lots of it is adult women that just look young and are explicitly not children in any way.
It’s more complicated than “pedophilia”, though the overlap is… Let’s say… Conspicuous.
Edit: The character likely did mean to imply pedophilia there, by the way.
It sometimes gets even weirder, though. I am no expert in anime, but many of the “loli” characters I have encountered, have adult woman hips, but a child’s face, and sometimes also upper body. Something like Tatsumaki in One Punch man for example. So it is sexualizing the child-ish look, while also making it more adult like…? I have not understood what is the point.
Is it not? The definition is the sexualization of a minor or prepubescent girl in anime/manga. Sounds like pedophilia to me.
I’d like to say I’ve never had that conversation but I have.
“Miss Kobayashi’s Dragon Maid” was fine (though not everyone’s cup of tea) until they started to sexualize the minors (which was basically at the introduction of the child “dragon”). Then I stopped watching it. And from what I hear, I picked a good spot to stop watching as it only got worse from there in regards to the minor characters.
EDIT: I should probably clarify for those that think I support that kind of content, I do not.
It’s been awhile since I watched Dragon Maid but I don’t recall that happening with her, maybe I blacked it out. Well there was the other child that was obsessed with her, I just don’t remember anything sexual. I do know that the relationship between the older big tiddy dragon and that boy feels innapropriate. I remembered while writing there is another child dragon with what I would describe as “bodankahonkaroos”. Maybe you’re right. I also think I recall the mangaka making porn of their characters to boost popularity.
Anime can have relationships between minors without oversexualization, even if that is what the characters are feeling.
Every month I learn about a new manga/anime artist who was caught with CP and they got a slap on the wrist.
especially in the context of an in-universe character saying it, yeah
Yeah, it is.
It has a wider variety of usage in Japanese than “pedophile” does in English, so no, it’s not always the most accurate translation. For example, “lolicon” (ロリコン) is used self-referentially, sometimes as a joke and sometimes not, in Japan while “pedophile” is basically never used like this in English. It’s also not too uncommon to use it of another person as a relatively lighthearted jab in Japanese, when in English calling someone else a pedophile (or even the more casual pedo) is a grave accusation.
But isn’t it used about people who are into sexualized (cartoon) children?
Yes, and it’s also used about actual child predator pedophiles. It’s a word with multiple senses/connotations, and one of those senses corresponds closely with the English word “pedophile” while the others do not. That’s why “pedophile” is not always the correct translation for it – though whether it’s correct in this case I can’t say, as I haven’t watched the anime in question.
If you’re into sexualized (cartoon) children you’re a pedophile, so the translation would be factually correct. That sort of pedophilia just has much less cultural acceptance in English speaking world
Which is why it’s not always the most accurate translation. Part of the job of a translator is to translate cultural nuance, which would be lost here.
It’s a bit like how in English, Epstein wouldn’t call Trump a pedophile, he’d say he “likes them young”. In Japanese he could call him a lolicon and get the same tone.
How would you translate the word to best fit the meaning?
I don’t know, I haven’t watched the show so I don’t know what the meaning is here.
If the term isn’t meant to be so “heavy” in the original usage, and there isn’t an equivalent “light” term here, I wonder if it would’ve been better to just translate it as “I didn’t realize you were a creep” or something else that misses the nuance, but gets the intended feeling and tone across.
Does “pedophile” not work in the scene in question?
They already basically answered that.
Though in this context, maybe the best thing to do is to not translate it. Most of the audience is likely to know the word already.
Did the character mean to say that they’re a pedophile but without the bad implication of it?
That just sounds to me that pedophilia is not frowned upon in Japan, not that the translation is inaccurate.
Japan is uncomfortably comfortable with loli shit, and it’s reflected in anime… Which is why anime will never be a family living room activity for me, unless I’ve vetted it to be clean. For example, Death Note is ok, but Dragon Maid is not.
To be an anime fan you have to learn this specific skill where you disassociate during cringe “fan-service” moments and come back to Earth once it’s over.
i wonder whether there’s a filtered anime streaming platform for western audiences specifically.
also at that point why would you bother with anime at all? just watch western cartoons / animations, there’s many of them too.
My favorite personal example of this is Langrisser Mobile. Easily my favorite mobile game ever made with tons of depth to character building and strategy with a genuinely engrossing story full of political intrigue in a fantasy setting. And I can never recommend it to anyone.
This is because certain female characters allow you to perform love confessions to them if you max them out. Almost all female characters (for the first few years) are under 16. You can confess your love to the 10 year old girl and she will promise to keep it a secret till she’s old enough. You can also buy a skin for her where her skin is glistening wet, she shakes her ass at the camera, and wears white, see-through-because-they’re-wet stockings. Why.
Most players are just totally fine with this. And it’s not a rare issue. Just off of the top of my head there’s literally every single anime ever set in a high school, about half of isekai fantasy, almost every modern shonen battle anime. Meanwhile basically every gacha game ever made has you hunting underage girls for sport. It’s wild just how pervasive it is in 2D/3DCG Japanese/Chinese media. (Langrisser Mobile is a Chinese gacha spinoff of a Japanese game series)
Part of the job of a translator is to translate cultural nuance, which would be lost here. That’s what makes the translation inaccurate in some contexts.
So we need to translate it so the audience undertands there’s a level of implied cultural acceptance of pedos. How’s this?
“I didn’t know you were a redditor”
it’s telling that these things are treated light-heartedly. more telling than the one-size-fits-all translation into “pedophile”, even.
That is so weird to me that a society with much more Shame basis for stuff does not shame attraction to and relationships with minors.
On the other hand I’ve always wondered when is shame effective as a social motivator to prevent misdeeds, and when does it push people to hide their problems instead of seeking help and solutions?
Well if the powers that be shamed attraction to and relationships with minors, they would have to accept that forcing themselves on people who aren’t in a position to refuse consent is shameful, and then they would have to answer some very uncomfortable questions about what some of their heroes did in Korea and China …
Because what a culture considers immoral is not the same as whether they use shame to police immorality.
You make an important distinction. I don’t understand why they wouldn’t consider it immoral when in the west it seems intrinsically immoral to most people.
I’ve read Naomi and Memoirs of a Geisha so Ive had some exposure to some of the cultural ideas, but i guess I’m looking for a scholarly article or educational text explaining the differences
It’s a relatively recent thing in the west, too. Not too long ago (well into the previous century) most girls were married off by their 15th or 16th birthday. “Fun” fact: there’s still a lot of child marriage in the US to this day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_the_United_States
Japan isn’t actually substantially different in this regard – sure, they have their teen idols, but then so does the US (Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber, what have you) – except they draw a clear line between fictional and real child pornography, both legally and in terms of general attitudes. The legal part isn’t that strange (lolicon material isn’t illegal in most of the US either), but the way general morality permits it in Japan but doesn’t in the US is interesting. My guess is that this is partially explained by the US generally being pretty puritanical when it comes to sexuality, whereas Japan is more liberal about it (in their own way), but that can’t be the only thing because European countries do not have the puritan culture of the US but also don’t share the Japanese tolerance of lolicon.
not intrinsically, at least not for long. in most of europe it was legal up until the 90s and there were even porno mags that ran specials.
…i do compulsive late night wiki walks, before you ask how i know that. i had a period where i read up on what happened to the “flower power” generation with all their “free love” stuff and that came up. i tend to do breadth-first search so i just read through articles while opening all the links in the background, then go down a level, etc etc. when a term like that comes up on a wiki page it triggers your fight-or-flight response.
I don’t have scholarly references or anything, but the standard for this varies massively across cultures. Just looking at the West, the age at which it was thought appropriate to get married used to be wayyy lower than it is now. In Ancient Greece, a particular form of pederasty was celebrated as an especially pure form of relationship.
Nowadays we have robust evidence that sexual activity between an adult and a child is severely harmful. However, even this we can’t legitimately extend too far cross-culturally, because we don’t (as far as I know) have any certainty that this isn’t conferred due to the child being the victim of a socially-defined crime. The question one could ask is: given that Ancient Greece didn’t categorise their form of paedophilia as a violation, did the children in those relationships therefore not suffer in the same way as modern victims of paedophilia? It’s an uncomfortable question, and even asking it will probably make most people nope out, but it’s very useful to be sharp about what we do and don’t know.
The issue is the power imbalance, not the criminalization.
And you know that for a fact? I mean, obviously it could be. As far as I know there is no evidence for it, and getting that evidence will be incredibly difficult.
This is a hill I am willing to die on. Consent is mandatory and the weak side of a power imbalance can’t consent.
Ah, yes, Japan - famously not a shame policing place. Maybe I should commit seppuku for this dishonor.
You have misunderstood me…
Hence it wouldn’t be “censorship” as the article seems to use the term. Though that doesn’t really apply at all because to “censor” it would be to not include the scene at all or rewrite it to say something else entirely. Saying “you like lolicon” or even just “you’re a pervert” might be considered euphemistic but it’s not censorship.
Per ICD-11, pedophilia can’t be diagnosed if attraction is not acted upon or is distressing the patient. Also it doesn’t count cases where attraction is not primary.
Colloquially accurate, though. Weird to use such a restricted definition of a word that has MUCH more common understanding…
Well no. Pedophilia is the attraction to real children and lolicon is the attraction to illustrations of prepubertal girl like characters that doesn’t even need to be sexual. There is a big difference between these too.
The translation is also wrong because in Japanese there exist the loanword pedophilia and it was not used in the original so translating it as another existing word is pretty bad.
this isn’t some baudrillard level type of simulacra shit, it’s literally people using cartoons as analogs to their real attractions, so yes, they are pedos.
I’m confused, are you pro- or anti policing? 🤔
lol. anti cop. ha. good catch. forgot my parens!
If you’re into these depictions because they’re depicted as children…
Well no. Pedophilia in a non medical context is not necessarily about features and mostly about power. Most CSA happens because it is an easy power imbalance, not because the perpetrators are attracted to childrean. For example in many countries with good Internet connections and a low socieoeconomic Standing producers of CSAM are often Mothers that need money for food they themselfs are not pedohiliac - they have a power imbalance and an economic incentive. At the same time the viewers of these live streams are often not pedohiliac too but want an easy victim for their Powerfantasie. With this popular depiction lolicons are not the same because, as they are only attracted to fictional characters, they will never harm childrean.
In a medical context a pedophile is exclusively or primarily attracted to childrean. Most ppl with pedophilia never harm a child btw. Lolicon on the other hand is not a paraphilia so while you are attracted to fictional childlike characters it has not to be exclusive. From a medical standpoint being sexually attracted to a minor alone is not pedophilia as long as you are as much attracted to non minors. Primary or exclusive attraction is a necessary symptom of pedophilia.
Further in Japanese culture being sexual attracted to post puberty women who have a very childlike demeanor is also considered lolicon. As an example the 24 year old pornstar playing a schoolgirl trope in western porn would also be considered lolicon. A pedohile would be someone that rapes children in person or by proxy. If someone does not understand this difference they are part of the problem.
Is it because they depict children or because they depict child like features?
By the first, technically adult characters in a child like body (lucky star) wouldn’t count.
By the second, catgirl cosplay counts as bestiality.
Things get seriously vague once you consider diverse aesthetic cores, like goth loli fashion. also technically is.
Is it pedophilia if you wanna have sex in a ballpit with your adult partner while dressed as clowns while sucking oversized pacifiers? Just asking.
If someone is specifically into child like features and akshually they’re a 9000 year old dragon, yeah they’re a pedo
The amazing digital circus might thank part of its popularity to the nostalgia of the kidcore aesthetic featured troughout the circus.
The adult lead character pomni appears as a clown with little features that we would objectively associate with an adult wonen besides possessing the clear psychological maturity and intelligence of an adult.
The features of pomni could be described as short stature, a bright childlike color scheme, and large eyes relative to the face, a physiological trait often associated with infancy in mammals.
Now for science, is it pedophia to wank off to amazing digital circus porn of pomni and does it make a difference wether its a visual drawing or a text based work of fiction.
My point is not to convince you of annythhing just that your argument itself easily falls apart once one has to define “childlike features” into a legal/moral setting.
I thought I had an aneurysm trying to parse the first paragraph. I am not going to google any of that
It’s a genuine very good youtube series that is rivalling industrial production quality and popularity, i am just using it as a very twisted example. Dont let my description stop you from watching it. Adc characters are not in any way portrayed in a sexual nature, unless you count this.
🤣🤡
Well, no, that’s not what it is. It’s young and young-looking characters, not “minor or prepubescent”.
Mind you, plenty lolicon stuff is extremely pedophilic, namely by sexualising prepubescent characters! But lots of it is adult women that just look young and are explicitly not children in any way.
It’s more complicated than “pedophilia”, though the overlap is… Let’s say… Conspicuous.
Edit: The character likely did mean to imply pedophilia there, by the way.
Often mocked with the “9000 year old vampire dragon who just happens to look like a young child”
It sometimes gets even weirder, though. I am no expert in anime, but many of the “loli” characters I have encountered, have adult woman hips, but a child’s face, and sometimes also upper body. Something like Tatsumaki in One Punch man for example. So it is sexualizing the child-ish look, while also making it more adult like…? I have not understood what is the point.