Alright one of you who know whats up, whats the deal with lucifer and satan? They’re different figures, right? Whats with the christians using them interchangeably? And why dont they throw Mammon into the ‘same guy’ umbrella term of ‘the devil’ too?
Literally ignore the other people. They clearly don’t know what they’re talking about, though anise is at least close. The name Lucifer originally referred to Venus, the morning star. It comes from Roman Latin, long before Christianity was a thing, and literally just means light-bringer. The Hebrew name for Venus is mentioned a single time in the bible, referencing a Babylonian king who was given the title. You can probably thank St. Jerome for replacing the Hebrew name for the planet with “Lucifer”, but I’m not certain on that one. I’m not a scholar of mediaeval church Latin. Never, not once in the bible, is Lucifer conflated with the devil. In fact, even the original Satan was called the Adversary not because he was YHWH’s adversary, but because he was effectively God’s District Attorney, prosecuting the wrongs of mortals. The entire conflation with Satan as evil happened between the recording of the Hebrew bible and the development of Christianity. Hence why Satan is pretty much only mentioned in the New Testament.
Pretty much every single thing modern Christians believe about the devil, or especially hell, was made up in the middle ages, and a hefty amount of that by Dante alone.
I recommend reading the wiki pages for both, since they’re interesting reads, but you should definitely check me on this. Don’t take my word for it.
E: forgot to mention that Milton was another one of the people who made up large portion of the modern idea of “hell”, which was originally a term from old Norse, and so he and Dante basically combined the Norse He’ll and the Greek Hades to make “Hell” as we know it today, complete with the Lord of Hell. It’s all syncretism.
Absolutely! And I never claimed it didn’t. However, the solidification of what “hell” is, and what “Lucifer” looks like, is in large part thanks to popular sources like Dante and Milton.
Hi, I’m one of the other people. Etymology is interesting and useful, but the question “what is Lucifer and how is he related to Satan” in the context about Christianity is specifically about dogma. When discussing dogma, etymology literally does not matter. Lucifer and Satan are the same, as defined by the church before the protestant movement, making it christian canon for all sects except Eastern Orthodoxy.
The person asked the question, specifically, why Christians conflate the two, and whether it is true that they are always the same person. Notice that the question asks not just for a dogmatic response, but a comparative religious analysis. While it is true that “modern Christians treat them like the same person”, saying “they are the same person” doesn’t answer the question at all. It asked why do Christians treat them like the same person, and the actual answer is that medieval Christians conflated a lot of things, made up a bunch of demons, and also took secular sources like Milton and Dante as authoritative gospel, rather than religious fiction. If you’re going based on the actual bible, Lucifer is a star in the sky, and precisely nothing more. Even the Serpent from the garden is only conflated with Satan.
Literally ignore the other people. They clearly don’t know what they’re talking about
This is my issue with your previous comment. It’s clear to me that we interpreted the question differently. Different interpretations does not make either of us wrong. I chose to answer with established current beliefs, you chose to answer with theological history. Both are correct.
medieval Christians conflated a lot of things, made up a bunch of demons
This wasn’t just an organic movement of peasants creating their own interpretations. It was literally taught by the church. Your own source about Satan specifically mentions pope Gregory IX accusing Cathars as following a heretical religion of Lucifer. This suggests that Lucifer and Satan were considered the same by the church, long before the 11th century. The demons that were “made up” were almost all Pagan gods. It was a deliberate action by the church to get them to convert.
No, Lucifer and Satan are the same entity. Satan’s name before he was cast out of heaven for heresy was Lucifer.
Other figures like Baphomet, Mammon, Beelzebub, etc were pagan gods that Christianity coopted into being devils controlled by Satan to cause people to stray from God.
Yes, there are lines that can be drawn between abrahamic religions and ancient Mesopotamian religions. I think there’s a fundamental difference between basing a religion on pre-existing mythos and coopting religions
Yeah, but Satan (as an entity, not just a concept) is both.
And we aren’t even sure when did Canaanite/Abrahamic religions become monotheistic, and I would classify at least that as a religion change (not the rituals/practical usage, but the core philosophy).
Alright one of you who know whats up, whats the deal with spartan 117 and master chief? They’re different figures, right? Whats with the heathens using them interchangeably? And why dont they throw John Halo into the ‘same guy’ umbrella term of ‘demon’ too?
Lucifer was just farrying light (ferre lucis - the bringer of light), but that just means morning star/Venus.
But like all such texts and oral traditions the dude had several previous roles via random translations, misrememberings, story evolution, several distinct religions, mashups of all those, etc.
Alright one of you who know whats up, whats the deal with lucifer and satan? They’re different figures, right? Whats with the christians using them interchangeably? And why dont they throw Mammon into the ‘same guy’ umbrella term of ‘the devil’ too?
Literally ignore the other people. They clearly don’t know what they’re talking about, though anise is at least close. The name Lucifer originally referred to Venus, the morning star. It comes from Roman Latin, long before Christianity was a thing, and literally just means light-bringer. The Hebrew name for Venus is mentioned a single time in the bible, referencing a Babylonian king who was given the title. You can probably thank St. Jerome for replacing the Hebrew name for the planet with “Lucifer”, but I’m not certain on that one. I’m not a scholar of mediaeval church Latin. Never, not once in the bible, is Lucifer conflated with the devil. In fact, even the original Satan was called the Adversary not because he was YHWH’s adversary, but because he was effectively God’s District Attorney, prosecuting the wrongs of mortals. The entire conflation with Satan as evil happened between the recording of the Hebrew bible and the development of Christianity. Hence why Satan is pretty much only mentioned in the New Testament.
Pretty much every single thing modern Christians believe about the devil, or especially hell, was made up in the middle ages, and a hefty amount of that by Dante alone.
I recommend reading the wiki pages for both, since they’re interesting reads, but you should definitely check me on this. Don’t take my word for it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer
Check their earliest histories.
E: forgot to mention that Milton was another one of the people who made up large portion of the modern idea of “hell”, which was originally a term from old Norse, and so he and Dante basically combined the Norse He’ll and the Greek Hades to make “Hell” as we know it today, complete with the Lord of Hell. It’s all syncretism.
Use of the word Lucifer to mean Satan predates Dante.
https://www.academia.edu/30735419/The_Use_of_the_Bible_in_the_Arengae_of_Pope_Gregory_IXs_Crusade_Calls_in_The_Uses_of_the_Bible_in_Crusader_Sources_ed_Elizabeth_Lapina_and_Nicholas_Morton_Leiden_Brill_2017_pp_206_235
Absolutely! And I never claimed it didn’t. However, the solidification of what “hell” is, and what “Lucifer” looks like, is in large part thanks to popular sources like Dante and Milton.
Hi, I’m one of the other people. Etymology is interesting and useful, but the question “what is Lucifer and how is he related to Satan” in the context about Christianity is specifically about dogma. When discussing dogma, etymology literally does not matter. Lucifer and Satan are the same, as defined by the church before the protestant movement, making it christian canon for all sects except Eastern Orthodoxy.
The person asked the question, specifically, why Christians conflate the two, and whether it is true that they are always the same person. Notice that the question asks not just for a dogmatic response, but a comparative religious analysis. While it is true that “modern Christians treat them like the same person”, saying “they are the same person” doesn’t answer the question at all. It asked why do Christians treat them like the same person, and the actual answer is that medieval Christians conflated a lot of things, made up a bunch of demons, and also took secular sources like Milton and Dante as authoritative gospel, rather than religious fiction. If you’re going based on the actual bible, Lucifer is a star in the sky, and precisely nothing more. Even the Serpent from the garden is only conflated with Satan.
This is my issue with your previous comment. It’s clear to me that we interpreted the question differently. Different interpretations does not make either of us wrong. I chose to answer with established current beliefs, you chose to answer with theological history. Both are correct.
This wasn’t just an organic movement of peasants creating their own interpretations. It was literally taught by the church. Your own source about Satan specifically mentions pope Gregory IX accusing Cathars as following a heretical religion of Lucifer. This suggests that Lucifer and Satan were considered the same by the church, long before the 11th century. The demons that were “made up” were almost all Pagan gods. It was a deliberate action by the church to get them to convert.
No, Lucifer and Satan are the same entity. Satan’s name before he was cast out of heaven for heresy was Lucifer.
Other figures like Baphomet, Mammon, Beelzebub, etc were pagan gods that Christianity coopted into being devils controlled by Satan to cause people to stray from God.
Well, all of them are from other religions, Lucy & god included.
No weh!
Yah, weh.
High weh even!
(That’s when you take drugs to get closer to god.)
Yes, there are lines that can be drawn between abrahamic religions and ancient Mesopotamian religions. I think there’s a fundamental difference between basing a religion on pre-existing mythos and coopting religions
Yeah, but Satan (as an entity, not just a concept) is both.
And we aren’t even sure when did Canaanite/Abrahamic religions become monotheistic, and I would classify at least that as a religion change (not the rituals/practical usage, but the core philosophy).
Have you ever seen Lucifer and Satan at the same place at the same time though?
Alright one of you who know whats up, whats the deal with spartan 117 and master chief? They’re different figures, right? Whats with the heathens using them interchangeably? And why dont they throw John Halo into the ‘same guy’ umbrella term of ‘demon’ too?
as I understand it Satan is officially a title and means something like “the adversary”, and Lucifer got this title after being cast out of heaven
Lucifer was just farrying light (ferre lucis - the bringer of light), but that just means morning star/Venus.
But like all such texts and oral traditions the dude had several previous roles via random translations, misrememberings, story evolution, several distinct religions, mashups of all those, etc.
I mean, look at this
wiki/Lucifer
P.S.
Hail Mrs Satan
uh, hail mrs yourself?
She could get hailed, ngl
Oh yeah I cannot hang as an electrical engineer.