It’s astonishing to me that PC gamers are suddenly so focused on the “creative intent” of game visuals.
We’re talking about the crowd who shits on console players because they (usually) cannot install mods for their games. Gamers have been destroying the creative intent of the visuals in games for years with shader mods, changes to models and animations, and adding totally new, completely out of place things.
The DLSS5 examples look like shit, but let’s stop pretending we give a shit about the devs “creative intent” when talking about it.
So let’s have that philosophical discussion again like when we had with elden ring mods and artistic/designer intent.
So the biggest philosophical difference to me is that mods are done with a human artistic intent behind it and in the end it’s up to the individual gamer to seek out and decide if that’s something they want to include in their game. It’s the fact that some person, one individual decided that yup, I’m going to add big ol’ tit’s to Grace and throw her into thong and pasties while revisiting her mother’s death. At least that gal understood what the intent of the scene/game was but made that conscious decision of “nah, let me change it to what I personally would like to see because I’m just a thirsty bastard.”. And even with these types of mods, yes there is a level of respect and gratitude of the original developers inherit in modding.
It’s something unique based on this one person’s interpretation of the game that they’re sharing with other gamers. On the other end of the spectrum, we as individual games can play the game and then make the decision of if we want to incorporate that transformative artists decision or not and we can decide to completely respect the designers original intent or reject/alter it.
DLSS 5 there is no artistic intent behind it just corporation’s algorithm that’s not agreeing, understanding the tone behind things, saying and whole sale adjusting everything according to a model that normalizes everything to some average model. Plus while you can say that developers can have a say with tools to maximize or minimize the effects, which another article I posted seems to point out that those tools of control may be over blown, there’s been no inkling that the gamer themselves can decide if they want to use it or not. And let’s not be coy with some bullshit about “Well you can turn DLSS off”, no you really can’t because this shit has been used as a crutch for game development to get to a respectable frame rate for reasons so now both developers and gamers are forced to bring in a corporations non-artistic vision into their games.
To me that human artistic factor is one part of the key and the decision to say fuck it I want the game to look like a bad only fans filter and the ultimate choice of the human gamer themselves to decide to use it or not is the other part of it and why to me DLSS 5 is bullshit slop.
If you want to us AI as the too to help you make dream a reality, there are plenty there for modeling and helping to make textures, that’s fine.
If you want generative AI to make you just make you model based on someone else’s art work, then to me as part of my values and morality, No. At that point you’ve lost any point of artistic intent when you’re letting AI, using other people’s design, other people’s artistic intent and style to make something for you. It’s not your art, your artistic intent you’re sharing at that point.
Also, even if you did do that, I as a gamer would still have the option to never use your AI slop of a mod, which is the other part of my argument on why mods are different from DLSS 5.
Why? This is exactly the same creative intent, I just used a tool you do not like to achieve a similar result. You using someone assets to replace Skyrim NPCs with Shrek or me using genAI to do the same is quite literally the same “artistic intent”.
Again, the key distinction to me is that a human had the idea and created it not fucking AI, not a mishmash other artists styles and ideas, it’s a unique individual’s idea and style that is ultimately produced.
If you use AI as the main creator then you’ve lost control of artistic vision because it’s not yours anymore. There’s a fine line between using a tool to help you get to something and stealing another person’s idea.
So let’s go with your Shrek analogy. At some point a human created Shrek as a unique idea and made it come to life. Now you want to use Shrek as in mod as a NPC, at that point my view is you’ve got no actual creative artistic intent there, you’re just using another humans idea but at some point at least it was a humans unique idea and if you had no idea how to make that into a 3d model to incorporate into your game then AI tools could help you make a Shrek model. I won’t call it AI slop completely but I’d definitely call it uninspired garbage and a complete theft of another persons idea without adding anything of substance but at least I could understand that you liked Shrek and wanted Shrek in your game, original game designer be damned I want Shrek all the time. And again, with mods, I’m free to never, ever install your mod.
To me human intent and choice is the biggest difference even with your analogy you would at least you would understand what the artists intent for the game was and made the conscious decision that Shrek would be better suited in the game and not generative AI going in and simply replacing everyone’s face with Shrek because a model stated Shrek’s face was what the model’s if/else statements averaged out between a whole set of pictures faces.
Irrelevant to your point? Damn, so you don’t even understand your own argument then.
Your first line is literally this:
It’s astonishing to me that PC gamers are suddenly so focused on the “creative intent” of game visuals
and then you’re the one who starts equating mods and how they’ve been altering “creative intent” and implying DLSS 5’s generative AI is no different.
The whole argument about this tech is ALL about creative intent when DLSS is not understanding the game and forcing an algorithmic take on the creative intent not just about how bad it looks.
Fuck man, get your shit in order with a coherent stance and argument.
Dude, you’re the one that brought up that gamers don’t care about the developers artistic intent and then brought in modding as the example of that and implying DLSS is no different just that it looks bad.
I present the counter argument that modding is respecting artistic intent and creates mode that modifies things because they actually respect the game, respect what the developers wanted but wanted to substitute and add their own artistic style and desires via mods.
Honestly at this point I have no fucking clue what your augment it because it’s all over the damn place when the article is referencing that developers are concerned that DLSS is overriding their artistry without understanding their intent and now your talking about GPU shortages which has no fucking bearing on anything being discussed.
And do you even understand what a personal attack is? Pointing out that you made a literal argument about artistic intention and then gaslighting to say you didn’t argue about artistic intention isn’t a personal attack. You calling me an idiot is and is a big ol’ ad-hominem attack, and the refuge of a person not actually serious about having a conversation.
But you are right, I am an idiot. I’m an idiot for thinking you actually had anything coherent or worthwhile to say.
Most people will install mods after playing the game as intended to get more life out of it and if a game is modable, it’s often because the devs included support for that.
Many of those devs got their starts in the modding scene and understand remix culture. What Nvidia is doing is not that. What Nvidia is doing is tantamount to including Autotune in every music player.
I don’t think the second part of your first statement is correct. There are plenty of games that have modding support and that’s great, but there’s also plenty of types of mods that exist despite a lack of support.
Reshade works with most games, even some with anticheats, for example. To piggyback off your analogy, that’s like using an equalizer to accentuate the bass because that’s what you like the most in music.
Regardless, throwing an Ai filter on top of your game seems like something a modder would come up with (and has), but not in any serious capacity.
Most people will install mods after playing the game as intended to get more life out of it and if a game is modable, it’s often because the devs included support for that.
An equalizer is a preferred option because everyone doesn’t have the same audio setup. Different speakers and different room setups will effect the audio. An equalizer is equivalent to the calibration settings in your display setting.
People have different tastes, and an equalizer is supplemental to both their tastes and individual audio setups. So would visually modifying a game to meet your own taste. Some people just like extra vibrance.
It’s because I never tried to represent an absolute, but you still decided to reduce my argument into one. Most people don’t mod a game before trying it vanilla. The few excepts are games with notorious bugs or legacy titles that only work on modern systems with modifications.
Modding a game is an artistic activity that’s a key part of remix culture and doesn’t interfere with the original artist intent of the game because it’s something that happens after release. DLSS5 is a layer on top of the release game that’s there from the start.
An equalizer is something the end user does themselves to customize their experience of the music, but it doesn’t override the original music or the “canon”. Any music maker will understand the need for equalizers because of unique room setups. They would not appreciate if their music was fed through a autotuner though, especially if it’s something the hardware manufacturer is forcing on the end user without their knowledge.
Bro opening up your sandwich to put mayo on is a vastly different experience than you opening up my sandwich to put whatever condiment you choose on my sandwich.
Right now there no indication that DLSS 5 will give gamers the option to turn the Mutant Only Fans filter off and considering that DLSS really isn’t optional in today’s games to get a decent frame rate, it sure seems like their going to force that shit infused “aioli” into you.
I’ve been using AMD, so I didn’t know if you could pick DLSS version or something. But then again, I never paid attention to whether I could pick between FSR versions, so AMD could force whatever they want too I guess.
There are somethings on both Nvida and AMD side that you can do a bit of a driver override but it’s more like force DLSS on vs turn this particular feature on from what I can remember from their windows based applications or forcing fake frame generation on and off via override and I’m not going to mention or consider third party applications since that’s not official.
But considering that this new stuff is lumped under the DLSS moniker and not something separate like frame generation, I do have doubts that this can easily be just turned on and off even at the application driver override.
I was going to argue that’s not the case, but then I looked at the most popular mods for Darkest Dungeon and it’s more than 50% anime girls with big tits. There are definitely some good mods in general that maintain creative intent, both aesthetic and game design wise, but it sometimes feels like searching for a needle in a haystack.
This type of tools should be added on a per-game basis.
Imagine AI hallucinating additional enemies on your screen when you are playing something like League of Legends.
As for games like skyrim - they might as well turn into wish-fulfilling AI-powered “go on adventure in fantasy land” machines and nobody would notice the difference.
Completely agree, it feels like taking crazy pills seeing the oddly misdirected anger.
Even then, I don’t understand the anger when nvidia isn’t forcing any game devs to use the tech, so isn’t it necessarily part of the creative intent if they decide to implement it as an option? At the very least they’re the ones that provide it or not.
It makes me feel like it’s an intentional campaign to stoke anger at something seriously inconsequential, but that seems crazy too.
It is the same argument they used to gatekeep souls games whenever someone suggested to add an easy mode for those who want to play the game but lack the skill to do so.
The intent of the developer is a lot less important than the experience of the player.
It is like a chef deciding how you are allowed to eat your steak.
No, it’s like ordering a steak at a restaurant and then somebody from the kitchen supply company coming it once it hits your table and sprinkling a bunch of cinnamon you didn’t ask for all over it.
Its a tiny fraction of the problem, the issue is with datacenter buildout taking all the available supply, if it was dlss directly related we would have seen ram prices increasing much earlier then we did.
But this specific iteration of DLSS is deeply wrapped up in the AI hype machine which is directly related to the datacenter buildout. The reason 5 has been a hot button topic centers around that AI upscaling showcase which only exists because NVidia is deeply invested in AI. This is what I mean that nothing in is a vacuum.
It’s astonishing to me that PC gamers are suddenly so focused on the “creative intent” of game visuals.
We’re talking about the crowd who shits on console players because they (usually) cannot install mods for their games. Gamers have been destroying the creative intent of the visuals in games for years with shader mods, changes to models and animations, and adding totally new, completely out of place things.
The DLSS5 examples look like shit, but let’s stop pretending we give a shit about the devs “creative intent” when talking about it.
Maybe gamers aren’t a monolith and the ones adding waifus to Skyrim aren’t the same as the ones criticising DLSS5?
Hmm. Nah that couldn’t be it.
So let’s have that philosophical discussion again like when we had with elden ring mods and artistic/designer intent.
So the biggest philosophical difference to me is that mods are done with a human artistic intent behind it and in the end it’s up to the individual gamer to seek out and decide if that’s something they want to include in their game. It’s the fact that some person, one individual decided that yup, I’m going to add big ol’ tit’s to Grace and throw her into thong and pasties while revisiting her mother’s death. At least that gal understood what the intent of the scene/game was but made that conscious decision of “nah, let me change it to what I personally would like to see because I’m just a thirsty bastard.”. And even with these types of mods, yes there is a level of respect and gratitude of the original developers inherit in modding.
It’s something unique based on this one person’s interpretation of the game that they’re sharing with other gamers. On the other end of the spectrum, we as individual games can play the game and then make the decision of if we want to incorporate that transformative artists decision or not and we can decide to completely respect the designers original intent or reject/alter it.
DLSS 5 there is no artistic intent behind it just corporation’s algorithm that’s not agreeing, understanding the tone behind things, saying and whole sale adjusting everything according to a model that normalizes everything to some average model. Plus while you can say that developers can have a say with tools to maximize or minimize the effects, which another article I posted seems to point out that those tools of control may be over blown, there’s been no inkling that the gamer themselves can decide if they want to use it or not. And let’s not be coy with some bullshit about “Well you can turn DLSS off”, no you really can’t because this shit has been used as a crutch for game development to get to a respectable frame rate for reasons so now both developers and gamers are forced to bring in a corporations non-artistic vision into their games.
To me that human artistic factor is one part of the key and the decision to say fuck it I want the game to look like a bad only fans filter and the ultimate choice of the human gamer themselves to decide to use it or not is the other part of it and why to me DLSS 5 is bullshit slop.
Replacing every NPC with a big boobies naked women is an artistic intent.
Human artistic intent and human choice to have every NPC with big boobies naked women and giant, and I mean giant, dongs naked men.
That’s the key.
So if I want to implement an AI tool that would automatically makes every game look like shit, this is also my human artistic intent.
If you want to us AI as the too to help you make dream a reality, there are plenty there for modeling and helping to make textures, that’s fine.
If you want generative AI to make you just make you model based on someone else’s art work, then to me as part of my values and morality, No. At that point you’ve lost any point of artistic intent when you’re letting AI, using other people’s design, other people’s artistic intent and style to make something for you. It’s not your art, your artistic intent you’re sharing at that point.
Also, even if you did do that, I as a gamer would still have the option to never use your AI slop of a mod, which is the other part of my argument on why mods are different from DLSS 5.
Why? This is exactly the same creative intent, I just used a tool you do not like to achieve a similar result. You using someone assets to replace Skyrim NPCs with Shrek or me using genAI to do the same is quite literally the same “artistic intent”.
Again, the key distinction to me is that a human had the idea and created it not fucking AI, not a mishmash other artists styles and ideas, it’s a unique individual’s idea and style that is ultimately produced.
If you use AI as the main creator then you’ve lost control of artistic vision because it’s not yours anymore. There’s a fine line between using a tool to help you get to something and stealing another person’s idea.
So let’s go with your Shrek analogy. At some point a human created Shrek as a unique idea and made it come to life. Now you want to use Shrek as in mod as a NPC, at that point my view is you’ve got no actual creative artistic intent there, you’re just using another humans idea but at some point at least it was a humans unique idea and if you had no idea how to make that into a 3d model to incorporate into your game then AI tools could help you make a Shrek model. I won’t call it AI slop completely but I’d definitely call it uninspired garbage and a complete theft of another persons idea without adding anything of substance but at least I could understand that you liked Shrek and wanted Shrek in your game, original game designer be damned I want Shrek all the time. And again, with mods, I’m free to never, ever install your mod.
To me human intent and choice is the biggest difference even with your analogy you would at least you would understand what the artists intent for the game was and made the conscious decision that Shrek would be better suited in the game and not generative AI going in and simply replacing everyone’s face with Shrek because a model stated Shrek’s face was what the model’s if/else statements averaged out between a whole set of pictures faces.
This seems completely irrelevant to my point. The problem isn’t that it’s against the developer’s artistic intentions, it’s that it looks like shit.
Who cares what the artist intended?
Irrelevant to your point? Damn, so you don’t even understand your own argument then.
Your first line is literally this:
and then you’re the one who starts equating mods and how they’ve been altering “creative intent” and implying DLSS 5’s generative AI is no different.
The whole argument about this tech is ALL about creative intent when DLSS is not understanding the game and forcing an algorithmic take on the creative intent not just about how bad it looks.
Fuck man, get your shit in order with a coherent stance and argument.
Oh so you’re just a troll.
No I’m a human that can at least understand my own argument.
Removed by mod
Dude, you’re the one that brought up that gamers don’t care about the developers artistic intent and then brought in modding as the example of that and implying DLSS is no different just that it looks bad.
I present the counter argument that modding is respecting artistic intent and creates mode that modifies things because they actually respect the game, respect what the developers wanted but wanted to substitute and add their own artistic style and desires via mods.
Honestly at this point I have no fucking clue what your augment it because it’s all over the damn place when the article is referencing that developers are concerned that DLSS is overriding their artistry without understanding their intent and now your talking about GPU shortages which has no fucking bearing on anything being discussed.
And do you even understand what a personal attack is? Pointing out that you made a literal argument about artistic intention and then gaslighting to say you didn’t argue about artistic intention isn’t a personal attack. You calling me an idiot is and is a big ol’ ad-hominem attack, and the refuge of a person not actually serious about having a conversation.
But you are right, I am an idiot. I’m an idiot for thinking you actually had anything coherent or worthwhile to say.
Most people will install mods after playing the game as intended to get more life out of it and if a game is modable, it’s often because the devs included support for that.
Many of those devs got their starts in the modding scene and understand remix culture. What Nvidia is doing is not that. What Nvidia is doing is tantamount to including Autotune in every music player.
I don’t think the second part of your first statement is correct. There are plenty of games that have modding support and that’s great, but there’s also plenty of types of mods that exist despite a lack of support.
Reshade works with most games, even some with anticheats, for example. To piggyback off your analogy, that’s like using an equalizer to accentuate the bass because that’s what you like the most in music.
Regardless, throwing an Ai filter on top of your game seems like something a modder would come up with (and has), but not in any serious capacity.
An equalizer is a preferred option because everyone doesn’t have the same audio setup. Different speakers and different room setups will effect the audio. An equalizer is equivalent to the calibration settings in your display setting.
Weird, pedantic emphasis alert.
People have different tastes, and an equalizer is supplemental to both their tastes and individual audio setups. So would visually modifying a game to meet your own taste. Some people just like extra vibrance.
It’s because I never tried to represent an absolute, but you still decided to reduce my argument into one. Most people don’t mod a game before trying it vanilla. The few excepts are games with notorious bugs or legacy titles that only work on modern systems with modifications.
Modding a game is an artistic activity that’s a key part of remix culture and doesn’t interfere with the original artist intent of the game because it’s something that happens after release. DLSS5 is a layer on top of the release game that’s there from the start.
An equalizer is something the end user does themselves to customize their experience of the music, but it doesn’t override the original music or the “canon”. Any music maker will understand the need for equalizers because of unique room setups. They would not appreciate if their music was fed through a autotuner though, especially if it’s something the hardware manufacturer is forcing on the end user without their knowledge.
Bro opening up your sandwich to put mayo on is a vastly different experience than you opening up my sandwich to put whatever condiment you choose on my sandwich.
To be fair, if DLSS5 is optional (I hope so), they are asking you if you want the condiment.
The condiment is a shitty mayo, and they did take initative (which an average person will mindlessly accept), but they did ask.
Right now there no indication that DLSS 5 will give gamers the option to turn the Mutant Only Fans filter off and considering that DLSS really isn’t optional in today’s games to get a decent frame rate, it sure seems like their going to force that shit infused “aioli” into you.
I’ve been using AMD, so I didn’t know if you could pick DLSS version or something. But then again, I never paid attention to whether I could pick between FSR versions, so AMD could force whatever they want too I guess.
There are somethings on both Nvida and AMD side that you can do a bit of a driver override but it’s more like force DLSS on vs turn this particular feature on from what I can remember from their windows based applications or forcing fake frame generation on and off via override and I’m not going to mention or consider third party applications since that’s not official.
But considering that this new stuff is lumped under the DLSS moniker and not something separate like frame generation, I do have doubts that this can easily be just turned on and off even at the application driver override.
Load-bearing if there, but yeah that’s a good point, thank you.
wait, that’s not artisanal fragrant brown mayo?
I was going to argue that’s not the case, but then I looked at the most popular mods for Darkest Dungeon and it’s more than 50% anime girls with big tits. There are definitely some good mods in general that maintain creative intent, both aesthetic and game design wise, but it sometimes feels like searching for a needle in a haystack.
This type of tools should be added on a per-game basis.
Imagine AI hallucinating additional enemies on your screen when you are playing something like League of Legends.
As for games like skyrim - they might as well turn into wish-fulfilling AI-powered “go on adventure in fantasy land” machines and nobody would notice the difference.
Okay, this is still possible. Just don’t turn it on.
Based take and true. But there’s different «rules» for low stakes modding and an organisation like nvdidia pushing for default slopification of games
Completely agree, it feels like taking crazy pills seeing the oddly misdirected anger.
Even then, I don’t understand the anger when nvidia isn’t forcing any game devs to use the tech, so isn’t it necessarily part of the creative intent if they decide to implement it as an option? At the very least they’re the ones that provide it or not.
It makes me feel like it’s an intentional campaign to stoke anger at something seriously inconsequential, but that seems crazy too.
Preach.
It is the same argument they used to gatekeep souls games whenever someone suggested to add an easy mode for those who want to play the game but lack the skill to do so.
The intent of the developer is a lot less important than the experience of the player.
It is like a chef deciding how you are allowed to eat your steak.
No, it’s like ordering a steak at a restaurant and then somebody from the kitchen supply company coming it once it hits your table and sprinkling a bunch of cinnamon you didn’t ask for all over it.
More like if the option to have cinnamon is on the menu and everyone is pissed it exists for some reason.
Because the cost of having that option has somehow both made the steak more expensive and the equipment to cook it more scarce.
Oh I didn’t realize you were forced to buy a 5090 in order to not use dlss, til.
Also DLSS runs locally off the gpu lmao so its not really contributing to the ram inflation issue overall.
Nothing exists in a vacuum; those impacts are real even if indirect.
Its a tiny fraction of the problem, the issue is with datacenter buildout taking all the available supply, if it was dlss directly related we would have seen ram prices increasing much earlier then we did.
But this specific iteration of DLSS is deeply wrapped up in the AI hype machine which is directly related to the datacenter buildout. The reason 5 has been a hot button topic centers around that AI upscaling showcase which only exists because NVidia is deeply invested in AI. This is what I mean that nothing in is a vacuum.