Lemmy is not a hosting site, it’s a forum, it’s fundamentally different.
I disagree with plenty of ideas, but I also reject the notion that someone should be barred from publishing them, because that tool will inevitably be used against those same people when the pendulum swings.
To wit, those mods didn’t stop existing, they were just hosted elsewhere, because a hosting site is not social media, it’s not a place of dialogue or community, it’s a utility, and thus fungible. Gatekeeping it accomplishes nothing.
But there are realistically always some rules on what kinds of hosted content is allowed on a page. Open racism/transphobia are, I’m guessing, not allowed. Why is this a step too far compared to other cases that go beyond legal limits?
It’s also important to note that 1) they weren’t barred from publishing the mod, and 2) they’re totally okay with using said tool in lots of cases where it was never used before - why would they suddenly care about it?
Open racism/transphobia are, I’m guessing, not allowed.
Ok, so you clearly are not familiar with what AO3 is.
The point is: Mods, like fanfiction, or any other form of expression that is to be perused by others at their leisure (unlike social media interaction which is by its very nature meant to address an audience of strangers in a “digital town square” of sorts) are both pointless and wrong to regulate.
The same exact argument of moral turpitude was the whole reason why american gay/lesbian erotica had to end with the characters dying to skirt censorship laws. Dismantling and demonising the institution of morality-based censorship is the only path to a place where no group is actively unable to express itself, and that includes groups we don’t like, because if it didn’t it would mean nothing.
It’s moronic, and infantilising, to prevent adults from consuming content in the privacy of their own home, just because you or I find it immoral or distasteful, simple as.
they weren’t barred from publishing the mod
Are you telling me the people behind the decision to ban certain mods due to bigotry were holding a stance of “we are more than happy for you to publish your content, just not here for completely unrelated reasons” or are we being serious and we accept the fact that the stance is an explicit “these mods should not exist and we don’t want any part of them”?
They were barred from publishing the mods to the farthest extent he people barring them were capable of. Thankfully they don’t own the entire internet.
they’re totally okay with using said tool in lots of cases where it was never used before
Are we talking about the same tools here? To be clear, I meant the tool of removing content from a site over political alignment, not tools as in “software tools.”
And if your argument is “well right wingers used admin authority to remove left-aligned game mods from sites” my reply is where and when, because I have 0 memory of LGBT-friendly mods ever facing pushback form hosting sites at any point in my 25+ years of gaming and playing modded games.
Institutions and pundits sure, but that was just as true of videogames as a whole so that’s not relevant here.
ETA: But even then, yes, the right is willing to do bad shit that erodes our institutions, are we going to chop off our noses to spite our faces or are we going to stand by principles even when they are not willing to?
But there are realistically always some rules on what kinds of hosted content is allowed on a page. […] Why is this a step too far compared to other cases that go beyond legal limits?
What legal limits? Nexusmods to my knowledge is a US company; there is no law against depicting a non-inclusive world (such as in the case of the pride flag removal mod for spiderman), or even outright discrimination of any kind in media, nor are there laws against outright political speech that discriminates, so long as it’s only speech, and it is not a direct and actionable incitement to violence.
Are we to assume that any site needs to adhere only to the freedoms that ALL countries would allow it, the narrowest subset possible, or are they to abide by the laws of the country where they are hosted and incorporated as a company? Because I will remind you that every single LGBT mod hosted on nexus is breaking laws in countries totaling a 4th of the human race, give or take.
Unfortunately I can’t take you seriously if you really think this:
Are you telling me the people behind the decision to ban certain mods due to bigotry were holding a stance of “we are more than happy for you to publish your content, just not here for completely unrelated reasons” or are we being serious and we accept the fact that the stance is an explicit “these mods should not exist and we don’t want any part of them”?
The “people behind the decision” are business people who were worried about ad revenue due to being associated with such mods. These people don’t give a fuck about the mod being available anywhere else as long as it doesn’t negatively affect their own bottom line. So yes, I’m telling you exactly that.
Ok, let’s say I grant you that, does this change anything in the rest of my argument you completely ignored or?
Also, even in that case, are you telling me the people who want that content removed, you know, the loud people who made a fuss about it and pressured the aforementioned business people, specifically don’t want it on nexusmods?
You can ignore a point by nitpicking it all you want, I will even grant your nitpick, it doesn’t make nexusmods less bad than they already were in my mind, if anything that’s worse because we can’t even expect consistent bias, just outright mercenary behaviour, either way not what I want from a hosting service.
Let’s see you address the rest of the post, if you would, I wrote a hell of a lot more which you have neglected.
No thank you, not interested. I’ve wasted too much time giving the benefit of the doubt to people after they misattribute such decisions. It never leads to anything worthwhile.
Which legal limits? The US? Iran? Whose moral compass does a site need to follow. Legality/morality as an argument on the global Internet is weak in my mind. Also why should a hoster be in charge of what is ethic and what is not? Take spider-man, were the prideflag removal mods stupid? Yes. Does it mean nexus should remove them? No.
To me, it’s a mixture of things:
Removing “bigoted mods” is just saying “we decide what you can download”, and I can make that determination for myself, as a grown ass adult.
Their monetisation is shit, and they’re very heavyhanded about it
Their user-facing behaviour is smug and condescending, they act like modding exists because of them and not the other way around.
We don’t allow hate speech here, why would it be allowed in mods?
Removing anti-trans mods should not be an issue.
Lemmy is not a hosting site, it’s a forum, it’s fundamentally different.
I disagree with plenty of ideas, but I also reject the notion that someone should be barred from publishing them, because that tool will inevitably be used against those same people when the pendulum swings.
To wit, those mods didn’t stop existing, they were just hosted elsewhere, because a hosting site is not social media, it’s not a place of dialogue or community, it’s a utility, and thus fungible. Gatekeeping it accomplishes nothing.
But there are realistically always some rules on what kinds of hosted content is allowed on a page. Open racism/transphobia are, I’m guessing, not allowed. Why is this a step too far compared to other cases that go beyond legal limits?
It’s also important to note that 1) they weren’t barred from publishing the mod, and 2) they’re totally okay with using said tool in lots of cases where it was never used before - why would they suddenly care about it?
Ok, so you clearly are not familiar with what AO3 is.
The point is: Mods, like fanfiction, or any other form of expression that is to be perused by others at their leisure (unlike social media interaction which is by its very nature meant to address an audience of strangers in a “digital town square” of sorts) are both pointless and wrong to regulate.
The same exact argument of moral turpitude was the whole reason why american gay/lesbian erotica had to end with the characters dying to skirt censorship laws. Dismantling and demonising the institution of morality-based censorship is the only path to a place where no group is actively unable to express itself, and that includes groups we don’t like, because if it didn’t it would mean nothing.
It’s moronic, and infantilising, to prevent adults from consuming content in the privacy of their own home, just because you or I find it immoral or distasteful, simple as.
Are you telling me the people behind the decision to ban certain mods due to bigotry were holding a stance of “we are more than happy for you to publish your content, just not here for completely unrelated reasons” or are we being serious and we accept the fact that the stance is an explicit “these mods should not exist and we don’t want any part of them”?
They were barred from publishing the mods to the farthest extent he people barring them were capable of. Thankfully they don’t own the entire internet.
Are we talking about the same tools here? To be clear, I meant the tool of removing content from a site over political alignment, not tools as in “software tools.”
And if your argument is “well right wingers used admin authority to remove left-aligned game mods from sites” my reply is where and when, because I have 0 memory of LGBT-friendly mods ever facing pushback form hosting sites at any point in my 25+ years of gaming and playing modded games.
Institutions and pundits sure, but that was just as true of videogames as a whole so that’s not relevant here.
ETA: But even then, yes, the right is willing to do bad shit that erodes our institutions, are we going to chop off our noses to spite our faces or are we going to stand by principles even when they are not willing to?
What legal limits? Nexusmods to my knowledge is a US company; there is no law against depicting a non-inclusive world (such as in the case of the pride flag removal mod for spiderman), or even outright discrimination of any kind in media, nor are there laws against outright political speech that discriminates, so long as it’s only speech, and it is not a direct and actionable incitement to violence.
Are we to assume that any site needs to adhere only to the freedoms that ALL countries would allow it, the narrowest subset possible, or are they to abide by the laws of the country where they are hosted and incorporated as a company? Because I will remind you that every single LGBT mod hosted on nexus is breaking laws in countries totaling a 4th of the human race, give or take.
Unfortunately I can’t take you seriously if you really think this:
The “people behind the decision” are business people who were worried about ad revenue due to being associated with such mods. These people don’t give a fuck about the mod being available anywhere else as long as it doesn’t negatively affect their own bottom line. So yes, I’m telling you exactly that.
Ok, let’s say I grant you that, does this change anything in the rest of my argument you completely ignored or?
Also, even in that case, are you telling me the people who want that content removed, you know, the loud people who made a fuss about it and pressured the aforementioned business people, specifically don’t want it on nexusmods?
You can ignore a point by nitpicking it all you want, I will even grant your nitpick, it doesn’t make nexusmods less bad than they already were in my mind, if anything that’s worse because we can’t even expect consistent bias, just outright mercenary behaviour, either way not what I want from a hosting service.
Let’s see you address the rest of the post, if you would, I wrote a hell of a lot more which you have neglected.
No thank you, not interested. I’ve wasted too much time giving the benefit of the doubt to people after they misattribute such decisions. It never leads to anything worthwhile.
Which legal limits? The US? Iran? Whose moral compass does a site need to follow. Legality/morality as an argument on the global Internet is weak in my mind. Also why should a hoster be in charge of what is ethic and what is not? Take spider-man, were the prideflag removal mods stupid? Yes. Does it mean nexus should remove them? No.
The limits of the countries where the businesses operate, and any ethical and moral limits the people behind the company see?
Come on, at least give arguments instead of asking questions with obvious answers.