Cape Coral, Florida is looking at a proposal to strap AI-powered cameras onto its garbage trucks. As the trucks roll their normal routes, the cameras would scan yards and house fronts for code violati...
The problem with these, and all, automated systems that detect EVERYTHING is that current code enforcement hardly detects 0.1% of existing violations, by design. That’s how they roll. They only kick into action when somebody complains.
Think of speeding tickets - how easy would it be for our roadside ALPR systems to time your transit from point A to point B, calculate your minimum average speed to make the trip in that time, and mail you a citation when you’re over the posted speed limit? Not hard at all, but that’s not how speeding tickets roll in this country (and most others, too.) If they really wanted total enforcement, your car already knows when you’re speeding, it can already wirelessly tattle on you to roadside monitors, they could effect 100% citation coverage if they wanted to, but whoever tries that is comitting political suicide.
One of the reasons HOAs are such groaners is that the types of people who run for HOA president occasionally (not always) go in for this “100% enforcement” mentality and due to the utter apathy of HOA residents who can’t be bothered to depose their despot, they can persist in that mode for years. Last HOA I lived in had fearless leaders who “lived in the back” and hired an outside company to write upkeep violations, but only on houses in the front of the neighborhood.
When I lived in a big city with a code enforcement department instead of an HOA system, things went along for decades without much flap, the occasional citation on the really persistently bad violators - as things are expected to work, but then some new neighbors moved in and attended the city-neighborhood meeting and started chanting “just enforce the law, JUST ENFORCE THE LAW” and, so, code inspectors were sent to walk the neighborhood by foot and write every violation they could see from the street. Our 400 houses got more violations written up in one day than the entire city of 40,000 homes received in the prior year.
So, these systems that “observe 13,000 violations in a single week” need to chill out, turn the filters way way up and figure out what the 13 most important violations in the city are each MONTH and work with those property owners to get them fixed. Use the photo-scans to pre-screen citizen complaints, ensure that there’s even a problem worth sending an inspector for when the neighbor says “there’s been a junky car here up on blocks for the past 2 years and somebody needs to do something about it” the records can show whether that’s true, or a gross exaggeration before prioritizing which citizen calls get seen this week and which need to chill out and “wait their turn.”
The problem with these, and all, automated systems that detect EVERYTHING is that current code enforcement hardly detects 0.1% of existing violations, by design.
True, but once it’s automated, it can easily be archived for future reference. Then it’s in your file for who knows what future use.
Abuse of those files is another problem. I’d say it’s a separate problem that’s possibly even more important to deal with, but it’s different from over-enforcement based on the stated purpose of the data collection.
the selective enforcement is, by design, a way to manufacture an excuse to harass and persecute minorities/undesirables.
Absolutely, and this is another thing that’s going to prevent “fair” algorithmic enforcement from happening.
The correct solution is to relax or abolish the laws themselves until they diminish to the point that fully enforcing them is reasonable.
I have always thought this, but I don’t get my jollies out of selectively “sticking it to” people different than me for the same things I get away with all the time. Apparently, a lot of our government, police, and voters do…
It is like work monitoring that can monitor every keystroke and trip to the bathroom. If you expect people to be 100% rule abiding, perfect and predictable I’ve got news for you. The people putting these systems into place would never stand for them being applied to them.
time your transit from point A to point B, calculate your minimum average speed to make the trip in that time, and mail you a citation when you’re over the posted speed limit?
I’m Norwegian. Read in the news that there was a guy who used to set a timer and count the seconds when driving through a tunnel with average speed cameras so he wouldn’t get fined.
Just keep the speed limit, you’d get there at the same time. Sometimes i wonder how these people even survive.
Pop up fines - impediment to free travel - arbitrary tax collection. I mean, if you want to go back to Roman times where any government officials you happen to meet can just grab you by the shoulder and “collect taxes for the emperor” because you happen to be within reach - you can call that “not evil” if you like. I call it regression of civilization.
Normally I’m not fond of complaints with regards to transportation regulation, because there’s usually good safety reason, but sincerely fuck receiving a ticket in the mail I didn’t know I could even receive. I think speed limits help people not die, but there are reasonable ways to do things.
Like the person also replying to you said, I am fine if I’m warned, but otherwise I’m legit just getting my pockets ran.
Yes, if you want to post a clearly visible easily readable sign: “SPEED LIMIT 80kph, VIOLATORS WILL RECEIVE FINES UP TO $5000 BY MAIL” then that’s fair game. If it’s a camera on a post with no notice and just the normal SPEED LIMIT signs that mean nothing of the sort the world over… that’s like a troll hiding under a bridge shaking down unsuspecting travelers as they pass.
The problem with these, and all, automated systems that detect EVERYTHING is that current code enforcement hardly detects 0.1% of existing violations, by design. That’s how they roll. They only kick into action when somebody complains.
Think of speeding tickets - how easy would it be for our roadside ALPR systems to time your transit from point A to point B, calculate your minimum average speed to make the trip in that time, and mail you a citation when you’re over the posted speed limit? Not hard at all, but that’s not how speeding tickets roll in this country (and most others, too.) If they really wanted total enforcement, your car already knows when you’re speeding, it can already wirelessly tattle on you to roadside monitors, they could effect 100% citation coverage if they wanted to, but whoever tries that is comitting political suicide.
One of the reasons HOAs are such groaners is that the types of people who run for HOA president occasionally (not always) go in for this “100% enforcement” mentality and due to the utter apathy of HOA residents who can’t be bothered to depose their despot, they can persist in that mode for years. Last HOA I lived in had fearless leaders who “lived in the back” and hired an outside company to write upkeep violations, but only on houses in the front of the neighborhood.
When I lived in a big city with a code enforcement department instead of an HOA system, things went along for decades without much flap, the occasional citation on the really persistently bad violators - as things are expected to work, but then some new neighbors moved in and attended the city-neighborhood meeting and started chanting “just enforce the law, JUST ENFORCE THE LAW” and, so, code inspectors were sent to walk the neighborhood by foot and write every violation they could see from the street. Our 400 houses got more violations written up in one day than the entire city of 40,000 homes received in the prior year.
So, these systems that “observe 13,000 violations in a single week” need to chill out, turn the filters way way up and figure out what the 13 most important violations in the city are each MONTH and work with those property owners to get them fixed. Use the photo-scans to pre-screen citizen complaints, ensure that there’s even a problem worth sending an inspector for when the neighbor says “there’s been a junky car here up on blocks for the past 2 years and somebody needs to do something about it” the records can show whether that’s true, or a gross exaggeration before prioritizing which citizen calls get seen this week and which need to chill out and “wait their turn.”
I was looking at this, wondering what I asked Claude to get this, before realizing it is Lemmy.
True, but once it’s automated, it can easily be archived for future reference. Then it’s in your file for who knows what future use.
Abuse of those files is another problem. I’d say it’s a separate problem that’s possibly even more important to deal with, but it’s different from over-enforcement based on the stated purpose of the data collection.
On the one hand, yes, fully enforcing these things would be gross overpolicing.
On the other hand, the selective enforcement is, by design, a way to manufacture an excuse to harass and persecute minorities/undesirables.
The correct solution is to relax or abolish the laws themselves until they diminish to the point that fully enforcing them is reasonable.
Absolutely, and this is another thing that’s going to prevent “fair” algorithmic enforcement from happening.
I have always thought this, but I don’t get my jollies out of selectively “sticking it to” people different than me for the same things I get away with all the time. Apparently, a lot of our government, police, and voters do…
It is like work monitoring that can monitor every keystroke and trip to the bathroom. If you expect people to be 100% rule abiding, perfect and predictable I’ve got news for you. The people putting these systems into place would never stand for them being applied to them.
Norway does this.
And so does the Netherlands. It ain’t magic.
Norway does a lot of sensible things that seem impossible in the USA.
You’re not suggesting the automated mailing of speeding tickets based on average speed is reasonable, are you?
I’m Norwegian. Read in the news that there was a guy who used to set a timer and count the seconds when driving through a tunnel with average speed cameras so he wouldn’t get fined.
Just keep the speed limit, you’d get there at the same time. Sometimes i wonder how these people even survive.
I know that Colorado does this as well. Probably other states in the USA do too. https://www.codot.gov/programs/speedenforcement
If it’s clearly posted, that’s fine - and appropriate in certain mountain pass situations.
If it’s a surprise when the fine arrives in the mail, that’s pure unadulterated evil.
I’m fairly neutral on this, can you explain why it’s evil?
Pop up fines - impediment to free travel - arbitrary tax collection. I mean, if you want to go back to Roman times where any government officials you happen to meet can just grab you by the shoulder and “collect taxes for the emperor” because you happen to be within reach - you can call that “not evil” if you like. I call it regression of civilization.
And to clarify, we are talking about the automatic measurement of speed and issuance of speeding tickets?
Normally I’m not fond of complaints with regards to transportation regulation, because there’s usually good safety reason, but sincerely fuck receiving a ticket in the mail I didn’t know I could even receive. I think speed limits help people not die, but there are reasonable ways to do things. Like the person also replying to you said, I am fine if I’m warned, but otherwise I’m legit just getting my pockets ran.
Yes, if you want to post a clearly visible easily readable sign: “SPEED LIMIT 80kph, VIOLATORS WILL RECEIVE FINES UP TO $5000 BY MAIL” then that’s fair game. If it’s a camera on a post with no notice and just the normal SPEED LIMIT signs that mean nothing of the sort the world over… that’s like a troll hiding under a bridge shaking down unsuspecting travelers as they pass.