Its actually hurtful to watch the strong opposition to cirumcision involving girls yet barely any opposition involving boys. It looks like another take on sexism and like one commenter said, it makes it more difficult for trans people.
Circumcision for both genders should only be a medical decision, not a thing you or your parents decide just because.
not a thing you or your parents decide just because.
If you want it done for yourself, I’d say that’s ok. Personal autonomy. But yeah, no one should be making the decision to have it done to you (barring medical necessity).
I agree with your underlying point and don’t wish to detract from it though.
I do agree with you; however, the ‘just because’ part should be emphasised here. For non medical body alternations such as this, there should be a period of time to actually decide if you truly want to undertake this, along with an basic assessment. I’m not advocating for bans, but regulation on how this should be approached in the first place.
Yeah, men aren’t allowed to talk about it. If we do, we’re questioning doctors, so we look stupid, and we’re questioning women, who all (in my experience) say they aesthetically prefer it, so we look sexist. We’re never going to win with that opposition. That’s why it’s not even a topic of discussion. It’s been decided for us, and we didn’t get a vote.
That why they do it to us as babies, so we can’t fight it. If they waited, we’d NEVER do it.
If we do, we’re questioning doctors, so we look stupid
Circumcision being medical is almost entirely an excuse by religious people. Cases where it is needed are rare (although additionally there are cases where it is not needed but is one of the possible solutions) and most of these cases are later in life where the person can provide informed consent.
and we’re questioning women, who all (in my experience) say they aesthetically prefer it, so we look sexist
What the fuck? How is that sexist? Just because Amerikkkan women who are used to it prefer it because it’s what they see as normal (In saner countries where infant genital mutilation is rarer women tend to prefer uncut because it’s what’s normal there) doesn’t mean that it should be done. Your body your choice. That’s equivalent to saying that women refusing to try to try to sexually appeal to men as much as possible is misandry.
I get where you’re coming from, and I absolutely don’t want to minimise anyone’s pain, but circumcision is not really equivalent to FGM in terms of consequences.
graphic detail
Often FGM includes removal of the clitoris and some of the vulva, leaving girls with a tiny aperture sealed with scar tissue requiring new fully torn flesh to achieve penetration, and girls and women who have been mutilated in this way are usually unable to feel any pleasure during sex, only pain. FGM much more like having the whole glans chopped off and half of the two sides of the wound sewn together than it is like male circumcision.
Feel very free to firmly oppose circumcision, but please don’t suggest that FGM is the same. It really really really isn’t. It’s very very different in what’s removed, very very different in how much ongoing pain it causes, very very different in the effect on sensation, and it’s not equivalent.
It’s like suggesting that it’s not fair that people treat cars running into people so much seriously than bikes running into people, except everyone, whether they ride a bicycle or a car, can see how incorrect that is, whereas a vast number of prior have no idea how brutal FGM is, which is how you end up with people claiming circumcision is just as bad. I mean, don’t get me wrong. It’s bad. But it’s in a whole different level and world of consequences for the girl than for the boy.
I agree but you’re missing the point. It’s (primarily) not about the harm it does, it’s about consent not having been given. Newborns cannot consent to such things. They cannot make such a decision. Parents do not have the right to make such a decision, nor does anyone except the person themself.
I don’t think you read behind my graphic detail spoiler, or you just claimed the equivalent of kissing you without your consent was just as bad as raping you, because they key point is consent. Incorrect. It is you who have missed the point. Kissing people without consent is not in any sense ok, but also trying to make out that my great aunt is a rapist because I never wanted the kisses trivialises rape and is not ok.
For what I’m saying how bad the thing is doesn’t matter, I do agree that FGM does more harm but the lack of consent is the real problem (eliminating the consent problem eliminates the entire problem, eliminating the harm problem does not solve the consent problem). I am not saying that FGM and circumcision are equally bad I am just saying that the root of the problem is the same in both cases.
Millions of newborns are forced into various religions without their consent. Basing your argument off of consent only is kinda a wash argument unless your willing to fight all the other things parents do to their children without their consent.
Nobody is ever going to take you seriously if you keep equating this to genital mutilation, which in common usage clearly and always refers to female genital mutilation which is so vastly different and more barbaric so as to render any kind of comparison immediately moot.
If you have to speak in hyperbole and melodramatics to make your point, you don’t have a point.
Not having kids, but it was done to me and I’m fine with it.
I’ve been in a relationship for ages now, but before that all the womem I asked said that preferred cut over uncut. Literally. All. Of. Them. It was at least a dozen.
But hey, don’t let me disrupt this whole… Uhh… Thing you guys got going on this thread.
Literally no thoughtful or reasonable sexual partner is going to say they prefer the type of penis it’s impossible for you to have, so that data is wildly biased.
I’m a woman and I’ve been with both. I don’t really care either way (and I feel confident most women who have actually been with both don’t really care) but my best lasting lover by far was uncut. I will not circumcise any sons I have.
Also in America cut is so normal that people may prefer it because they’re used to it.
But also, it’s fucking wild to argue to cut a piece off your baby’s genitals because of what future partners may mildly prefer. I wasn’t circumcised because my mom was firmly against the practice and I’m grateful for that.
And to add my anecdotes, back when I had a dick the foreskin never got in the way of me getting laid, and one ex was super excited to learn I had it.
The mistake in all of this discussion is making those who are circumsized feel ashamed about it at all. No one should feel bad about being circumsized.
Now that that’s out of way, that’s a pretty weak counterargument. Your justification for why we should keep doing it is that society prefers it? That’s exactly the thing that’s finally being pushed back against. It’s inherently a barbaric practice that serves no medical purpose (for the large majority) and is purely aesthetic, and we’re doing it to newborn babies so they can look like their daddies and keep the social norm alive.
You don’t have anything to feel bad about and it’s great that it hasn’t been a hindrance for you, but as soon as one generation stops, your argument will be moot.
The only shaming I’ve seen in this thread so far is of the parents who made that decision, and rightly so. People like the guy you replied to are perpetuating the issue by being so nonchalant about it.
It’s ok, we in the civilised world already think you’re stupid, your attitude towards mutilating the dicks of little boys is just another reason why we do.
If you are fine with being circumcised, that seems like the best possible outcome and I’m glad you are happy with your body in that way. However, many people were circumcised and are not fine with it. After all, it is a choice made for them without their consent. Also, it shouldn’t matter what women prefer. It should be your body, your choice. If someone wants to get circumcised later in life, that is their choice.
Yes, because that’s what they’re used to. That’s not nothing. But in Australia I’ve had the opposite experience. Every single one saying they prefer uncut. It’s just what you’re exposed to.
Kinda fucked up how people basically ignore the fact that we do genital mutilation in America.
Yeah but it’s to boys so who cares? /s
Its actually hurtful to watch the strong opposition to cirumcision involving girls yet barely any opposition involving boys. It looks like another take on sexism and like one commenter said, it makes it more difficult for trans people.
Circumcision for both genders should only be a medical decision, not a thing you or your parents decide just because.
If you want it done for yourself, I’d say that’s ok. Personal autonomy. But yeah, no one should be making the decision to have it done to you (barring medical necessity).
I agree with your underlying point and don’t wish to detract from it though.
I do agree with you; however, the ‘just because’ part should be emphasised here. For non medical body alternations such as this, there should be a period of time to actually decide if you truly want to undertake this, along with an basic assessment. I’m not advocating for bans, but regulation on how this should be approached in the first place.
Yeah, men aren’t allowed to talk about it. If we do, we’re questioning doctors, so we look stupid, and we’re questioning women, who all (in my experience) say they aesthetically prefer it, so we look sexist. We’re never going to win with that opposition. That’s why it’s not even a topic of discussion. It’s been decided for us, and we didn’t get a vote.
That why they do it to us as babies, so we can’t fight it. If they waited, we’d NEVER do it.
Circumcision being medical is almost entirely an excuse by religious people. Cases where it is needed are rare (although additionally there are cases where it is not needed but is one of the possible solutions) and most of these cases are later in life where the person can provide informed consent.
What the fuck? How is that sexist? Just because Amerikkkan women who are used to it prefer it because it’s what they see as normal (In saner countries where infant genital mutilation is rarer women tend to prefer uncut because it’s what’s normal there) doesn’t mean that it should be done. Your body your choice. That’s equivalent to saying that women refusing to try to try to sexually appeal to men as much as possible is misandry.
I get where you’re coming from, and I absolutely don’t want to minimise anyone’s pain, but circumcision is not really equivalent to FGM in terms of consequences.
graphic detail
Often FGM includes removal of the clitoris and some of the vulva, leaving girls with a tiny aperture sealed with scar tissue requiring new fully torn flesh to achieve penetration, and girls and women who have been mutilated in this way are usually unable to feel any pleasure during sex, only pain. FGM much more like having the whole glans chopped off and half of the two sides of the wound sewn together than it is like male circumcision.
Feel very free to firmly oppose circumcision, but please don’t suggest that FGM is the same. It really really really isn’t. It’s very very different in what’s removed, very very different in how much ongoing pain it causes, very very different in the effect on sensation, and it’s not equivalent.
It’s like suggesting that it’s not fair that people treat cars running into people so much seriously than bikes running into people, except everyone, whether they ride a bicycle or a car, can see how incorrect that is, whereas a vast number of prior have no idea how brutal FGM is, which is how you end up with people claiming circumcision is just as bad. I mean, don’t get me wrong. It’s bad. But it’s in a whole different level and world of consequences for the girl than for the boy.
I agree but you’re missing the point. It’s (primarily) not about the harm it does, it’s about consent not having been given. Newborns cannot consent to such things. They cannot make such a decision. Parents do not have the right to make such a decision, nor does anyone except the person themself.
I don’t think you read behind my graphic detail spoiler, or you just claimed the equivalent of kissing you without your consent was just as bad as raping you, because they key point is consent. Incorrect. It is you who have missed the point. Kissing people without consent is not in any sense ok, but also trying to make out that my great aunt is a rapist because I never wanted the kisses trivialises rape and is not ok.
For what I’m saying how bad the thing is doesn’t matter, I do agree that FGM does more harm but the lack of consent is the real problem (eliminating the consent problem eliminates the entire problem, eliminating the harm problem does not solve the consent problem). I am not saying that FGM and circumcision are equally bad I am just saying that the root of the problem is the same in both cases.
Millions of newborns are forced into various religions without their consent. Basing your argument off of consent only is kinda a wash argument unless your willing to fight all the other things parents do to their children without their consent.
I am.
Really fucked up that if you call it genital mutilation or the sexual assault of a child people will push back against it and defend the act.
Nobody is ever going to take you seriously if you keep equating this to genital mutilation, which in common usage clearly and always refers to female genital mutilation which is so vastly different and more barbaric so as to render any kind of comparison immediately moot.
If you have to speak in hyperbole and melodramatics to make your point, you don’t have a point.
Not having kids, but it was done to me and I’m fine with it.
I’ve been in a relationship for ages now, but before that all the womem I asked said that preferred cut over uncut. Literally. All. Of. Them. It was at least a dozen.
But hey, don’t let me disrupt this whole… Uhh… Thing you guys got going on this thread.
Literally no thoughtful or reasonable sexual partner is going to say they prefer the type of penis it’s impossible for you to have, so that data is wildly biased.
I’m a woman and I’ve been with both. I don’t really care either way (and I feel confident most women who have actually been with both don’t really care) but my best lasting lover by far was uncut. I will not circumcise any sons I have.
Also in America cut is so normal that people may prefer it because they’re used to it.
But also, it’s fucking wild to argue to cut a piece off your baby’s genitals because of what future partners may mildly prefer. I wasn’t circumcised because my mom was firmly against the practice and I’m grateful for that.
And to add my anecdotes, back when I had a dick the foreskin never got in the way of me getting laid, and one ex was super excited to learn I had it.
The mistake in all of this discussion is making those who are circumsized feel ashamed about it at all. No one should feel bad about being circumsized.
Now that that’s out of way, that’s a pretty weak counterargument. Your justification for why we should keep doing it is that society prefers it? That’s exactly the thing that’s finally being pushed back against. It’s inherently a barbaric practice that serves no medical purpose (for the large majority) and is purely aesthetic, and we’re doing it to newborn babies so they can look like their daddies and keep the social norm alive.
You don’t have anything to feel bad about and it’s great that it hasn’t been a hindrance for you, but as soon as one generation stops, your argument will be moot.
The only shaming I’ve seen in this thread so far is of the parents who made that decision, and rightly so. People like the guy you replied to are perpetuating the issue by being so nonchalant about it.
Men in many African countries also overwhelmingly prefer their women cut. Coincidence?
You’re obviously American, as were the women
It’s ok, we in the civilised world already think you’re stupid, your attitude towards mutilating the dicks of little boys is just another reason why we do.
If you are fine with being circumcised, that seems like the best possible outcome and I’m glad you are happy with your body in that way. However, many people were circumcised and are not fine with it. After all, it is a choice made for them without their consent. Also, it shouldn’t matter what women prefer. It should be your body, your choice. If someone wants to get circumcised later in life, that is their choice.
Yes, because that’s what they’re used to. That’s not nothing. But in Australia I’ve had the opposite experience. Every single one saying they prefer uncut. It’s just what you’re exposed to.
People prefer what’s familiar, in cultures where it’s not the norm they prefer uncut.
it’s wild to me how many let this one thing dominate their entire identity and rail against their parents for it.
Our parents are fallible. Its okay to point out the fucked up shit they did to us and say “this shit is fucked up”
yeah they should have beaten more kids so they wouldn’t have time to winge about this garbage