Do you see the discrepancies between the two list? Everything you listed is something that we men either do to ourselves, or is done to us by a political/economic entity that is dominated by other males. The same can’t be said for list for women.
Also it’s not really a competition when only one group is being oppressed.
Or are you claiming men are being oppressed by the system that was created and operated by men?
My whole point is that women are systemically being targeted by a system created by men, specifically because they are women. While men are being negatively affected by a system built by men because of reasons besides their sex.
I’m not claiming men do not experience hardship that is unique to their sex, it’s just not specifically being done to them because of their sex.
Yes, but I think the point was the white part of “white men.”
I was “lucky” enough to have my privilege put in plain english during a job interview. I’m white and this guy literally says “it so hard to find a clean cut white guy for this job, I don’t want some Dominican walking into a customers store with our logo on.” If I was not white I would not have gotten that job.
But yes, as you say, I’m stuck working in a factory right now with shitty air quality, I’ve been single for almost a decade, have severe anxiety and depression, and am fairly poor. Still doesn’t mean I don’t have privilege for simply being white. :/
This is a good point to bring up. My friend who is far less educated and her husband have awful jobs compared to me, but because they have generational wealth they are much better off in life. They have homes, land, etc all because they were passed down. At the same time, they would rail against being called privileged, but they could sell that home for half a million dollars and never go into the debts or put in the work others have to just to have a roof over their heads.
I’m in kinda the same boat, early 30s white guy, shitty job (truck driver), single, and so depressed and anxious that I’m currently on short term disability because of it.
I feel like the big problem with the discourse around white privilege is that most people misunderstand what it actually means. It doesn’t mean that everything is handed to you purely because of skin colour, and it doesn’t mean that things can’t be difficult. It just means that we get an unspoken, and often unconscious advantage over our racialized peers in our white-dominated society.
I don’t see how nobody else sees a connection between the way men are viewed, and the way black people, who are viewed as more masculine in society than other races, are viewed. A significant portion of that list is a list of what black people go through, black men even moreso.
I’m sure all the male homicide victims would be really glad they weren’t killed by women because then they would have lost their privilege…
I really hate this reasoning I see sometimes that because men hurt other men we don’t need to care about those victims. We can just dismiss them and assume they still have all their male privilege because a smaller number of women are also victims. How about we stop framing all this stuff as men vs women and who has it better and instead focus on the actual problems and the actual victims regardless of their gender expression?
Where did I say “all men?” Is it not entirely possible that these are all issues caused explicitly by men while there is also a conscious awareness from other men who are aware of and trying to address the issue? Men are the issue, or more accurately the concept of obligate masculinity is, but guess what demographic is enforcing that mindset?
Hint: not women, and if you think it is then you don’t listen to women nor men.
Not a dog whistle. I’m most likely more progressive than you, but you keep trying to feel superior to others! That’s definitely not a part of the problem!
My experience from square straight married life is that women want men in general to be gentle and kind and whatnot, but they want their own husband to be capable of violence.
At least that was my wife, there were aspects of toxic masculinity that she absolutely encouraged.
Like, one time I got on a busy train with her and another guy got scared of me and left his seat. She sat down and smiled and patted my hand and said “that’s respect right there baby”
And I totally understand the desire to have sex with a big strong not too bright dominant guy, trust me I get it.
It’s not just SOs, mothers often play a huge part in conditioning men for the patriarchy, calling them little soldiers, telling them not to cry, to fight back at the bully at school, etc.
So, because women also have the ability to subjectively be shitty people and internalize misogyny that means no men are to blame for the outlined issues?
Unironically my best friend is a lesbian. She makes fun of flamboyant men or exceptionally butchy women but its not in a genuinely hateful way. She and her wife use terminology I’ve never dreamed of to describe other queer folk too. A “Hey mama” is my favorite recent one, pretty sure it means an attention seeking lesbian. So I kinda see what you’re both saying. Dude saying some gay people HATE flamboyant gay men is less correct though. I played the “I have a gay friend” card it was super effective. Thats three non trolling responses so far.
Yes? I’m even friends with several queer people…shocking as that may be.
I even know a few conservative leaning gay dudes, our gay district has a gaybar specifically for cowboys. Even they don’t hate or discriminate against flamboyant gay men. They might not seek their company or want anything to do with that particular scene, but they are still neighborly.
You don’t dismantle the patriarchy by attacking men and blaming them for everything. The patriarchy is upheld by women as well. Women have privileges under the patriarchy, that feminists are not ready to let go off.
A post patriarchy has to be better for everybody and can only be reached by gaining the support of men.
The current trend is a growing political division between men and women with women moving to the left and men to the right. The currently employed strategy of putting men down makes this worse.
Having any society that allows for rulers to exist in any form will always result in having a form of patriarchy, among other arbitrary divisions, such as race, whatever “IQ” is, blue vs white collar, who people vote for, etc. not including “the powerful vs the masses”.
Divide and conquer is a strategy as old as society.
Yes and you know what all us leftists say, “if you have any adversity it means you never had any privilege at all in the first place” very valid. Thank you for your contribution.
He said, essentially, how could a Pakistani immigrant doing bicycle deliveries have more privilege than a white woman with a college education and stable office job. Teeeeeheeeeee
Men
Women
Do you see the discrepancies between the two list? Everything you listed is something that we men either do to ourselves, or is done to us by a political/economic entity that is dominated by other males. The same can’t be said for list for women.
Two things can be true at the same time. FFS, this oppression competition is beyond pathetic.
Nuance also exists…
Also it’s not really a competition when only one group is being oppressed.
Or are you claiming men are being oppressed by the system that was created and operated by men?
My whole point is that women are systemically being targeted by a system created by men, specifically because they are women. While men are being negatively affected by a system built by men because of reasons besides their sex.
I’m not claiming men do not experience hardship that is unique to their sex, it’s just not specifically being done to them because of their sex.
HEY! Two things can be true is my thing!
Two people can be right at the same time ;P
Yes, but I think the point was the white part of “white men.”
I was “lucky” enough to have my privilege put in plain english during a job interview. I’m white and this guy literally says “it so hard to find a clean cut white guy for this job, I don’t want some Dominican walking into a customers store with our logo on.” If I was not white I would not have gotten that job.
But yes, as you say, I’m stuck working in a factory right now with shitty air quality, I’ve been single for almost a decade, have severe anxiety and depression, and am fairly poor. Still doesn’t mean I don’t have privilege for simply being white. :/
This is a good point to bring up. My friend who is far less educated and her husband have awful jobs compared to me, but because they have generational wealth they are much better off in life. They have homes, land, etc all because they were passed down. At the same time, they would rail against being called privileged, but they could sell that home for half a million dollars and never go into the debts or put in the work others have to just to have a roof over their heads.
Big fucking yikes, they just said that out loud?
I’m in kinda the same boat, early 30s white guy, shitty job (truck driver), single, and so depressed and anxious that I’m currently on short term disability because of it.
I feel like the big problem with the discourse around white privilege is that most people misunderstand what it actually means. It doesn’t mean that everything is handed to you purely because of skin colour, and it doesn’t mean that things can’t be difficult. It just means that we get an unspoken, and often unconscious advantage over our racialized peers in our white-dominated society.
I don’t see how nobody else sees a connection between the way men are viewed, and the way black people, who are viewed as more masculine in society than other races, are viewed. A significant portion of that list is a list of what black people go through, black men even moreso.
What is the source of these issues?
Maybe men should stop being so shitty to men, but more so they should definitely stop being so hostile and abusive to women.
I’m sure all the male homicide victims would be really glad they weren’t killed by women because then they would have lost their privilege…
I really hate this reasoning I see sometimes that because men hurt other men we don’t need to care about those victims. We can just dismiss them and assume they still have all their male privilege because a smaller number of women are also victims. How about we stop framing all this stuff as men vs women and who has it better and instead focus on the actual problems and the actual victims regardless of their gender expression?
You’re really good at not understanding systemic socio psychology issues.
Maybe you’re just too focused on a single way of categorising people
Sure.
Maybe it’s not all men and using such generic language is akin to saying, “maybe the gays should stop being so flamboiyant if they want acceptance”?
Nice dog whistle.
Where did I say “all men?” Is it not entirely possible that these are all issues caused explicitly by men while there is also a conscious awareness from other men who are aware of and trying to address the issue? Men are the issue, or more accurately the concept of obligate masculinity is, but guess what demographic is enforcing that mindset?
Hint: not women, and if you think it is then you don’t listen to women nor men.
Not a dog whistle. I’m most likely more progressive than you, but you keep trying to feel superior to others! That’s definitely not a part of the problem!
Do… do you not see the irony in what you just wrote? Read it back to yourself.
Oh I know it. Irony or not, I know what I’m talking about and you’re yapping like a reactionary fool.
Women police the patriarchy plenty.
My experience from square straight married life is that women want men in general to be gentle and kind and whatnot, but they want their own husband to be capable of violence.
At least that was my wife, there were aspects of toxic masculinity that she absolutely encouraged.
Like, one time I got on a busy train with her and another guy got scared of me and left his seat. She sat down and smiled and patted my hand and said “that’s respect right there baby”
And I totally understand the desire to have sex with a big strong not too bright dominant guy, trust me I get it.
It’s not just SOs, mothers often play a huge part in conditioning men for the patriarchy, calling them little soldiers, telling them not to cry, to fight back at the bully at school, etc.
So, because women also have the ability to subjectively be shitty people and internalize misogyny that means no men are to blame for the outlined issues?
Don’t date or marry shitty toxic people.
Thats not a dog whistle
I see you’re having a great time with this post.
I mean, I am, but, that wasn’t a dog whistle.
It was, though.
How so, because I don’t think you’re operating with the correct definition
You’re wrong
That would imply it’s the gay community itself that is not accepting flamboyant gays…
The gay community is not uniformly homogeneous. There are plenty of gay men who aren’t big fans of flamboyant queer culture.
“Aren’t big fans” is not the same as being bigoted, or discriminating against…
Do think there are some Lincoln Republic gays out their thinking Tommy is going to hell, not because he’s queer, but because he sashays too hard?
Have you ever talked to gay men?
Unironically my best friend is a lesbian. She makes fun of flamboyant men or exceptionally butchy women but its not in a genuinely hateful way. She and her wife use terminology I’ve never dreamed of to describe other queer folk too. A “Hey mama” is my favorite recent one, pretty sure it means an attention seeking lesbian. So I kinda see what you’re both saying. Dude saying some gay people HATE flamboyant gay men is less correct though. I played the “I have a gay friend” card it was super effective. Thats three non trolling responses so far.
Yes? I’m even friends with several queer people…shocking as that may be.
I even know a few conservative leaning gay dudes, our gay district has a gaybar specifically for cowboys. Even they don’t hate or discriminate against flamboyant gay men. They might not seek their company or want anything to do with that particular scene, but they are still neighborly.
Homeboy played the “I have gay friends” card, it was super effective.
Shhhh they wanna use a big paint brush, it supports their argument
These are all great reasons for men to want to dismantle the patriarchy (the cause of them all)
You don’t dismantle the patriarchy by attacking men and blaming them for everything. The patriarchy is upheld by women as well. Women have privileges under the patriarchy, that feminists are not ready to let go off.
A post patriarchy has to be better for everybody and can only be reached by gaining the support of men.
The current trend is a growing political division between men and women with women moving to the left and men to the right. The currently employed strategy of putting men down makes this worse.
True. In what ways can we get more men to understand the patriarchy is their real enemy?
Force us to at gunpoint is the only reasonable answer
Can I just tell you how much I’m enjoying your thread and your participation it?
Hee hee hoo hoo ha ha
By not calling it patriarchy, that term is burned.
Okay. What would you call it?
Capitalism or “ruling class”
Having any society that allows for rulers to exist in any form will always result in having a form of patriarchy, among other arbitrary divisions, such as race, whatever “IQ” is, blue vs white collar, who people vote for, etc. not including “the powerful vs the masses”.
Divide and conquer is a strategy as old as society.
I’d call it The Machine, and then we could all rage against it
Oh shiiiiiiittttttt bro cracked the code
Joe
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Yes and you know what all us leftists say, “if you have any adversity it means you never had any privilege at all in the first place” very valid. Thank you for your contribution.
You sir can eat the fattest sloppiest bag of dicks your saggy cunt mouth has ever whored for.
What do you mean?
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He said, essentially, how could a Pakistani immigrant doing bicycle deliveries have more privilege than a white woman with a college education and stable office job. Teeeeeheeeeee
These are all true and factual, excellent job.