This is a mess. I’ve rewritten this a bit of this and added sections and removed sections. The gist of what I think is just that I have a lot of mixed feelings about all of this, and it’s a very VERY complex topic that I just want to be done with…
In addition to asking Valve to modify or eliminate its loot box system, the New York suit asks for Valve to make “full restitution to consumers” for the disgorgement of “all monies” received from its gambling system, and for fines of “three times the amount of its gain.” Ars Technica has reached out to Valve for comment.
Lol.
Okay, so,
Loot boxes, like other forms of gambling, can lead to addiction and result in real harm.
But Valve’s loot boxes are particularly pernicious because they are popular among children and
adolescents, who are lured into opening loot boxes by the prospect of winning expensive virtual
items that convey status in the gaming world. Research has shown that children who are
introduced to gambling are at a significantly higher risk of developing gambling addictions later
in life.
I read the “nature of the lawsuit” part of the lawsuit, as I think it’s enough to understand the gist of what’s going on. The lawsuit is like 50 pages long and I’m not a lawyer, I’m just laying in bed with my eyelids getting heavy.
Basically, 1-11, and 13 are entirely THIS IS GAMBLING with sprinkles of GAMBLING IS BAD. Like, yeah, no fucking duh. 14 states:
As described further below, Valve’s actions violate Article I, Section 9 of the New York
Constitution, and Sections 220.05 and 220.10 of New York’s Penal Law.
Looks like article I section 9 is ‘gambling is illegal in ny’. It doesn’t immediately say what 220.05/10 are, but going off the really big focus on THIS IS GAMBLING AND GAMBLING IS ILLEGAL trend, I can guess what it says.
So, why the fuck is ny going after valve NOW? Why not… I dunno, a decade ago? This is so weird! And why not sue ALL the companies that have been doing it for many decades now? Niantic, Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, the hoards of gacha games and trading card games? It can’t really be that the valve definition really just hit some specific conditions, like being otherwise useless skins, most crate opens are worth basically nothing, etc. can it?
And then mixed in is a pretty heavy amount of protect the children. Which… Yes, virtue signal, but yes. Valve shouldn’t allow children to be gambling. But also, I think this is a case of a mean-well situation that developed in the wrong way. Valve needs to check themselves and fix this, 100%.
If you don’t know, the skins thing developed over probably more than a decade. It was a way for modders and skinners to legitimately make money, rather than be barred by copyright. Valve would share in the profit, everybody would see your custom skins rather than just you, it would give everyone a sense of uniqueness, and wouldn’t unbalance the game because it was just cosmetics. Then rarity and logistics, and then it spiraled out of control. It was never meant to be “hey let’s give kids gambling addiction and steal their money”, Valve is one of the very few companies that that ISN’T their goal, as is very evidenced by anybody who knows anything about them. They aren’t EA. It’s unfortunate that it ended up this way, with other companies only seeing the dollar signs, with valve landing on it where they have, with the building hate for them.
I had a bunch of other stuff written out, mostly thoughts as I went. I have many thoughts on this. I think Valve should stop lootboxes and set an example as a leader of the industry.
I’m sad to see Valve get kicked so much, and would be devastated to see Steam and Valve fall (muh library!). They generally do try to serve consumers well, it’s very clear. They single handedly saved pc gaming by offering a quality service better than piracy. Always on DRM was the trade. I hope they can innovate and do better without further dark patterns. Maybe this lawsuit is just what they need to get their shit together. Maybe it’ll destroy them and a bunch of actually shitty companies will continue to be the shittiest companies to ever grace the earth in Valve’s place. I have a very bad feeling about this.
Valve, for all our sakes, do better, plz fix. Before this gets worse.
There is one core difference to most other lootboxes, and it’s that the skins you get from them have a tangible real world value. It is actually, in every way, resemblant of a slot machine. Put in money, receive an amount of money that is less than what you put in on average (though I guess it’s never 0).
I’d have far more support for this if we didn’t have something matching this entirely for decades, completely legal for kids, with the only difference being that you get a physical item instead of something digital. Of course, I’m referring to trading cards. By all means regulate both, but regulating the digital version while not touching the physical one is insane.
Assuming that they are seems like a leap, but since we don’t really know exactly what consciousness is,
Which is no different that trading card games and also not valve’s fault.
I have no love for loot boxes, at least when real money is used to get them, but from what I’ve seen across the board Valve is far from the worst with them. Valve also doesn’t allow you to sell the skins you get for real money, only steam credit. That is still real-world value, but they are also not the only company that does that.
Outside of real-world money for loot boxes, most of the issues with the skin market are not anything Valve did. It was third party sites popping up that allowed people to sell their skins for cash.
Valve have even made changes to their side that crashed the market and caused a ton of “value” to disappear.
The fact is that this lawsuit is pretty obviously not actually about gambling. If it was there are far worse companies they could go after.
And I do want something to be done about them across the board, but this is not going to do that.
The implications and nuances of this lawsuit are so incredibly deep and ripple so far, that anybody on here or anywhere else that says they strongly feel one way or the other is either completely full of shit, has an ulterior motive, or has a personal stake somehow.
This lawsuit, when deeply thought about, is the opposite of simple. The more you know, the messier it gets.
Which actually makes in simple to me. They are throwing things at the wall to see what sticks while also muddying the water as if they are trying to hide something.
They are throwing very convoluted logic around for this, and I immediately distrust anyone in government who makes wild leaps to “protecting kids”.
First off, I don’t like loot boxes. Specifically paid loot boxes, because if you don’t signify that something like this could effect any game with random drops.
Second, all the games in question are rated M. They are very much not targeted at kids. Obviously kids still play them, but that is on the parents.
That they also added “violent video games” nonsense that could have come out of the 90s is absurd. Is it about gambling or violent media? If it’s about violent media, why not go after any of the other shooters that are likely going to have way more kids on them. Counterstrike is old enough that I would be surprised if it isn’t a majority of millennials and gen X. At the very least I seriously doubt there are a ton of minors playing.
If it is actually about gambling targeted at kids, The Pokemon trading card game is probably the best example of “gambling aimed at kids”. Sure, digital loot boxes can be more insidious, but that isn’t how they’ve framed this and if you’ve seen how TCG players buy packs it’s very much looks like gambling.
The framing of this is very suspicious because it doesn’t make sense to go after valve exclusively for any of the things they are claiming. And the 3x fine is ridiculous. I’m all for fines actually being based on profits, but you can’t tell me they would do the same for any other company.
And part of me feels this is a strong-arm tactic because valve is not publicly traded which lets them be very pro user/consumer and is the one company that is complying with age verification in a way that still protects user privacy.
I should’ve clarified, with “this” i mean more the general sentiment about regulation of these lootboxes that I’ve seen in other contexts as well - other than the general topic I don’t really have an opinion on the lawsuit other than it seeming a bit ridicous to reimburse every customer in full.
Trading cards are arguably a problem too, but one that becomes much less prevalent due to their comparative inconvenience. The internet can gamify immediacy around them, and the cards of that store will never run out of stock.
This is a mess. I’ve rewritten this a bit of this and added sections and removed sections. The gist of what I think is just that I have a lot of mixed feelings about all of this, and it’s a very VERY complex topic that I just want to be done with…
Lol.
Okay, so,
I read the “nature of the lawsuit” part of the lawsuit, as I think it’s enough to understand the gist of what’s going on. The lawsuit is like 50 pages long and I’m not a lawyer, I’m just laying in bed with my eyelids getting heavy.
Basically, 1-11, and 13 are entirely THIS IS GAMBLING with sprinkles of GAMBLING IS BAD. Like, yeah, no fucking duh. 14 states:
Looks like article I section 9 is ‘gambling is illegal in ny’. It doesn’t immediately say what 220.05/10 are, but going off the really big focus on THIS IS GAMBLING AND GAMBLING IS ILLEGAL trend, I can guess what it says.
So, why the fuck is ny going after valve NOW? Why not… I dunno, a decade ago? This is so weird! And why not sue ALL the companies that have been doing it for many decades now? Niantic, Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, the hoards of gacha games and trading card games? It can’t really be that the valve definition really just hit some specific conditions, like being otherwise useless skins, most crate opens are worth basically nothing, etc. can it?
And then mixed in is a pretty heavy amount of protect the children. Which… Yes, virtue signal, but yes. Valve shouldn’t allow children to be gambling. But also, I think this is a case of a mean-well situation that developed in the wrong way. Valve needs to check themselves and fix this, 100%.
If you don’t know, the skins thing developed over probably more than a decade. It was a way for modders and skinners to legitimately make money, rather than be barred by copyright. Valve would share in the profit, everybody would see your custom skins rather than just you, it would give everyone a sense of uniqueness, and wouldn’t unbalance the game because it was just cosmetics. Then rarity and logistics, and then it spiraled out of control. It was never meant to be “hey let’s give kids gambling addiction and steal their money”, Valve is one of the very few companies that that ISN’T their goal, as is very evidenced by anybody who knows anything about them. They aren’t EA. It’s unfortunate that it ended up this way, with other companies only seeing the dollar signs, with valve landing on it where they have, with the building hate for them.
I had a bunch of other stuff written out, mostly thoughts as I went. I have many thoughts on this. I think Valve should stop lootboxes and set an example as a leader of the industry.
I’m sad to see Valve get kicked so much, and would be devastated to see Steam and Valve fall (muh library!). They generally do try to serve consumers well, it’s very clear. They single handedly saved pc gaming by offering a quality service better than piracy. Always on DRM was the trade. I hope they can innovate and do better without further dark patterns. Maybe this lawsuit is just what they need to get their shit together. Maybe it’ll destroy them and a bunch of actually shitty companies will continue to be the shittiest companies to ever grace the earth in Valve’s place. I have a very bad feeling about this.
Valve, for all our sakes, do better, plz fix. Before this gets worse.
There is one core difference to most other lootboxes, and it’s that the skins you get from them have a tangible real world value. It is actually, in every way, resemblant of a slot machine. Put in money, receive an amount of money that is less than what you put in on average (though I guess it’s never 0).
I’d have far more support for this if we didn’t have something matching this entirely for decades, completely legal for kids, with the only difference being that you get a physical item instead of something digital. Of course, I’m referring to trading cards. By all means regulate both, but regulating the digital version while not touching the physical one is insane.
Which is no different that trading card games and also not valve’s fault.
I have no love for loot boxes, at least when real money is used to get them, but from what I’ve seen across the board Valve is far from the worst with them. Valve also doesn’t allow you to sell the skins you get for real money, only steam credit. That is still real-world value, but they are also not the only company that does that.
Outside of real-world money for loot boxes, most of the issues with the skin market are not anything Valve did. It was third party sites popping up that allowed people to sell their skins for cash.
Valve have even made changes to their side that crashed the market and caused a ton of “value” to disappear.
The fact is that this lawsuit is pretty obviously not actually about gambling. If it was there are far worse companies they could go after.
And I do want something to be done about them across the board, but this is not going to do that.
The implications and nuances of this lawsuit are so incredibly deep and ripple so far, that anybody on here or anywhere else that says they strongly feel one way or the other is either completely full of shit, has an ulterior motive, or has a personal stake somehow.
This lawsuit, when deeply thought about, is the opposite of simple. The more you know, the messier it gets.
Which actually makes in simple to me. They are throwing things at the wall to see what sticks while also muddying the water as if they are trying to hide something.
They are throwing very convoluted logic around for this, and I immediately distrust anyone in government who makes wild leaps to “protecting kids”.
First off, I don’t like loot boxes. Specifically paid loot boxes, because if you don’t signify that something like this could effect any game with random drops.
Second, all the games in question are rated M. They are very much not targeted at kids. Obviously kids still play them, but that is on the parents.
That they also added “violent video games” nonsense that could have come out of the 90s is absurd. Is it about gambling or violent media? If it’s about violent media, why not go after any of the other shooters that are likely going to have way more kids on them. Counterstrike is old enough that I would be surprised if it isn’t a majority of millennials and gen X. At the very least I seriously doubt there are a ton of minors playing.
If it is actually about gambling targeted at kids, The Pokemon trading card game is probably the best example of “gambling aimed at kids”. Sure, digital loot boxes can be more insidious, but that isn’t how they’ve framed this and if you’ve seen how TCG players buy packs it’s very much looks like gambling.
The framing of this is very suspicious because it doesn’t make sense to go after valve exclusively for any of the things they are claiming. And the 3x fine is ridiculous. I’m all for fines actually being based on profits, but you can’t tell me they would do the same for any other company.
And part of me feels this is a strong-arm tactic because valve is not publicly traded which lets them be very pro user/consumer and is the one company that is complying with age verification in a way that still protects user privacy.
I should’ve clarified, with “this” i mean more the general sentiment about regulation of these lootboxes that I’ve seen in other contexts as well - other than the general topic I don’t really have an opinion on the lawsuit other than it seeming a bit ridicous to reimburse every customer in full.
Trading cards are arguably a problem too, but one that becomes much less prevalent due to their comparative inconvenience. The internet can gamify immediacy around them, and the cards of that store will never run out of stock.
Why now? Because they just got a new mayor and administration that cares
New York state is the entity that has filed suit