So start local with a third party, then. I hear DSA is actually having some luck building up that way, and once you built a local foundation, they actually become viable at higher levels. A third party is never going to just come out of nowhere and win the presidency, but with a foundation under them… Well, people are getting tired of Democrats, and they might be willing to entertain other options.
Plus, if they just get big enough, other parties can actually influence the platforms of the main parties. The corporate parties are never going to give us everything we want, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take what incremental change we can.
Personally I’m not against voting (although I’m against the “support the lesser evil” rhetoric). I just hate that libs constantly downplay political violence (whether it be direct violence against politicians or their supporters or destruction of property) as an available tool that must never be used unless absolutely necessary. That if you do use it, you must distance yourself from leftists, anti-capitalists, Democrats, and basically make it seem like you only did it cause you were bored. Not doing so would hurt us too much.
the heart of the issue seems to be the legitimacy that voting gives to a system – participate if you chose do, just do so w the awareness of the fact your participation was more beneficial to the status quo than it was to you.
and, yes, you do need to do more than just vote; but if you lack an understanding of why your increased participate is now necessary you’ll be treading water at best – like the democrats.
there have been people who’ve been in this situation before and wrote down what they did with the benefit hindsight included – if you look at their stuff you’ll find out what you need to do beyond voting.
The system gets legitimacy from the 150 million people who vote. A tiny minority of leftists refusing to participate does not delegitimize the system one iota. As a cis hetero white man, honestly my vote either way doesn’t affect me all that much, other than maybe being thrown in jail for leftist organizing. But it also doesn’t really affect the status quo either. I vote to benefit the people who would suffer under one choice more than the other: people of color, women, the LGBTQ community, immigrants, etc.
And yes, obviously we need to build an alternative where no one suffers, but that takes time. Personally, I prefer to at least attempt to minimize the suffering of others during that time. Accelerationism is sociopathy.
you’re either unwilling or unable to see that the things that the accelerationists want is the eventual outcome anyways because of the way the system is intentionally structured and history proves that nature will ensure that the commeuppance gets worse the longer we put off making a change.
turning the election into a farce through a lack of cooperating they way they want you to is the easiest & laziest way for an american to help induce such a change, but it will not work if too many people are unable/unwilling to see past the parliamentary mind games that makes you think that you’re helping the people they’re holding ransom for your vote.
I vote to benefit the people who would suffer under one choice more than the other: people of color, women, the LGBTQ community, immigrants, etc.
as a neurospicy queer brown immigrant, i implore you to stop – look at the pattern established by the last near century of the red vs blue team culture wars to recognize it for the smoke screen that it is.
turning the election into a farce through a lack of cooperating they way they want you to is the easiest & laziest way for an american to help induce such a change, but it will not work if too many people are unable/unwilling to see past the parliamentary mind games that makes you think that you’re helping the people they’re holding ransom for your vote.
Too many people are unable to see past the parliamentary mind games. If you can’t persuade a hundred million people, that strategy is pointless and ineffective. You can’t persuade a hundred million people, so this strategy is pointless and ineffective.
No, they’re suffering either way. My heart, and some of my money, goes out to them. But their suffering is not dependent on my vote. If it was, I would vote that way. But it isn’t.
I wouldn’t have done stupid counterproductive shit that just made things worse without any benefit.
I think the “follower shit” comment betrays your bitterness at not actually having any followers. You’re never going to get your revolution if 99.999% of the population is too “spineless” to caucus with. If you can’t find common ground with other leftists who are already sold on communism because they disagree with your strategy, how in the absolute fuck are you expecting to persuade the liberal working class?
Ah yes, I have you tagged. You only care about the suffering when you can use it as a political cudgel. I remember you told me immigrant children suffering in America was justified because they have the privilege of living in the imperial core, and then justified it saying they would suffer either way.
Your opinion could not possibly hold less value, especially on the topic of the suffering of others. Your performative outrage is disgusting, at least I actually send aid to Palestine.
I remember you told me immigrant children suffering in America was justified because they have the privilege of living in the imperial core, and then justified it saying they would suffer either way.
I said it was not the responsibility for the people outside the imperial core to take care of your children. You would rather other children suffer to have yours not, instead of fixing the system that originates from your fucking country
No you didn’t, you’re just doing the same bad faith word twisting to try to redeem your horrible statements. I have nothing more to say to you than you should be ashamed of yourself.
The system is “self-legitimazing” regardless of how many people choose not to vote. Consider the current president didn’t even get the majority of votes.
Instead of buying into the liberal myth that voting creates legitimacy, look at voting as choosing which boss you are going to fight.
The owner has set up this system where he says you get to choose the boss. Even if you do, at best you get to choose who interprets the owners orders. Spending all your time fighting for one boss or the other or against specifically the boss is the wrong thing to do. The correct thing to do is to fight to get rid of the owner and this system, to create a new system that is truly democratic, that will listen to the workers.
That is certainly not what I am advocating for when I say go vote for who you want to fight against.
The correct thing to do is to fight to get rid of the owner and this system, to create a new system that is truly democratic, that will listen to the workers.
Voting does not prevent you from building dual power.
at best you get to choose who interprets the owners orders.
And that has material consequences. To ignore that is to limit who you are able to work with.
I see. I should have said “vote for where you want to fight; in a concentration camp or in the streets”. I meant it reflects the quality of the fight, not that the fight goes away.
Except in Amerika you’re not voting for who you’re fighting against you’re simply voting for which mask the actual people in power put forth (the good pr nice mask (democrats), the tough and mean mask (republican)). The real boss is not the American president, or Congress, etc but the capitalists behind them who you very specifically get no vote on and to who your vote by design has no tangible material effect on.
Being not Amerikan it is true for me in a way but not in the way you’re implying. You genuinely believe your vote at the Amerikan ballot box has tangible material effects on capitalists interests? That’s a pretty extreme stance that even most liberals would retreat from if pressed.
Any revolution predicated on ignoring the material reality of the masses is doomed to fail.
This is a nonsequitor that doesn’t address anything I said.
If you hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”, then you really may as well not bother trying, bcs nothing you were trying was ever going to help, and most of it will just strengthen the fascists.
Please point to the part of the meme / title that encouraged voting for anyone let alone anything else. This is just disenpowerment and pushes the narrative that it’s hopeless to try anything at all under the guise of “liberals bad” (which I don’t necessarily disagree with, but this is training people to give up entirely)
So you really did hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”.
You, specifically, should absolutely give up and don’t bother trying.
Capitalists must be so relieved that socialist and communist enclaves advocate disengaging from the electoral process, as if an afternoon or less spent voting, two if you vote in a primary, precludes one from otherwise protesting, organizing, or lifting a finger to resist.
“Oh if you correctly identify an issue with our current system then you must have organised a proletarian uprising that will be launched as soon as I ask it of you, otherwise your argument is moot.”
More like “You want to discourage people from voting and encourage rebellion because you’re a moronic accelerationist who has no clue what he’s actually suggesting.”
What lib podcast mentioned accelerationism? You guys all mention it now, and you do it wrong by the way. An accelerationist would vote democrat since they are more capable stewards of empire and the accelerationist wants capital to accumulate as quickly as possible.
Interesting. So aside from proving that you don’t know what accellerationists do or believe and that you literally cannot imagine any way to make a difference other than your quadrennial tilt at the windmills begging the ruling class for better crumbs, was there a point to your comment?
Funny, for people who hate having generalizations made about them, y’all certainly make a lot of generalizations.
By the way, quadrennial would mean that I only care during the midterms, since that’s what election season we’re in. Biannually is the word you’re looking for.
Correctly identifying the issues with a system does not mean you have to have all solutions a disingenuous lazy asshole wants from you immediately.
Being able to deduce that voting for genociders does nothing good does not mean a person has to actively sit at the helm of a militant revolutionairy organisation.
No, the message should be to build a vanguard party that can channel violent sentiment in the direction of class struggle rather than voting liberal under the pretense of antifascism and damage control.
Ah yes, more “don’t bother voting” propaganda.
The message should be “you need to do more than just vote”
The title of the post says voting isn’t enough.
Not voting for genocide does more good than any amount of volunteer work within the democratic party could ever do.
Do radlibs have a MLM scheme where they get commission for getting people to vote for their cult leaders?
(I mean that would explain why they’re so desparate that they even try to shill voting to their worst enemies, the anti-imperialists)
So start local with a third party, then. I hear DSA is actually having some luck building up that way, and once you built a local foundation, they actually become viable at higher levels. A third party is never going to just come out of nowhere and win the presidency, but with a foundation under them… Well, people are getting tired of Democrats, and they might be willing to entertain other options.
Plus, if they just get big enough, other parties can actually influence the platforms of the main parties. The corporate parties are never going to give us everything we want, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take what incremental change we can.
Personally I’m not against voting (although I’m against the “support the lesser evil” rhetoric). I just hate that libs constantly downplay political violence (whether it be direct violence against politicians or their supporters or destruction of property) as an available tool that must never be used unless absolutely necessary. That if you do use it, you must distance yourself from leftists, anti-capitalists, Democrats, and basically make it seem like you only did it cause you were bored. Not doing so would hurt us too much.
the heart of the issue seems to be the legitimacy that voting gives to a system – participate if you chose do, just do so w the awareness of the fact your participation was more beneficial to the status quo than it was to you.
and, yes, you do need to do more than just vote; but if you lack an understanding of why your increased participate is now necessary you’ll be treading water at best – like the democrats.
there have been people who’ve been in this situation before and wrote down what they did with the benefit hindsight included – if you look at their stuff you’ll find out what you need to do beyond voting.
The system gets legitimacy from the 150 million people who vote. A tiny minority of leftists refusing to participate does not delegitimize the system one iota. As a cis hetero white man, honestly my vote either way doesn’t affect me all that much, other than maybe being thrown in jail for leftist organizing. But it also doesn’t really affect the status quo either. I vote to benefit the people who would suffer under one choice more than the other: people of color, women, the LGBTQ community, immigrants, etc.
And yes, obviously we need to build an alternative where no one suffers, but that takes time. Personally, I prefer to at least attempt to minimize the suffering of others during that time. Accelerationism is sociopathy.
you’re either unwilling or unable to see that the things that the accelerationists want is the eventual outcome anyways because of the way the system is intentionally structured and history proves that nature will ensure that the commeuppance gets worse the longer we put off making a change.
turning the election into a farce through a lack of cooperating they way they want you to is the easiest & laziest way for an american to help induce such a change, but it will not work if too many people are unable/unwilling to see past the parliamentary mind games that makes you think that you’re helping the people they’re holding ransom for your vote.
as a neurospicy queer brown immigrant, i implore you to stop – look at the pattern established by the last near century of the red vs blue team culture wars to recognize it for the smoke screen that it is.
Too many people are unable to see past the parliamentary mind games. If you can’t persuade a hundred million people, that strategy is pointless and ineffective. You can’t persuade a hundred million people, so this strategy is pointless and ineffective.
it’s pointless for me to try because i can’t, but mother nature can and she will.
The people being Palestinians, got it.
No, they’re suffering either way. My heart, and some of my money, goes out to them. But their suffering is not dependent on my vote. If it was, I would vote that way. But it isn’t.
Yikes.
Absolute spineless follower shit, you would 100% have done nothing to oppose slavery
I wouldn’t have done stupid counterproductive shit that just made things worse without any benefit.
I think the “follower shit” comment betrays your bitterness at not actually having any followers. You’re never going to get your revolution if 99.999% of the population is too “spineless” to caucus with. If you can’t find common ground with other leftists who are already sold on communism because they disagree with your strategy, how in the absolute fuck are you expecting to persuade the liberal working class?
Like voting for democrats
yeah you don’t care about genocide. They are suffering because of people like you.
Fucking disgusting person
Ah yes, I have you tagged. You only care about the suffering when you can use it as a political cudgel. I remember you told me immigrant children suffering in America was justified because they have the privilege of living in the imperial core, and then justified it saying they would suffer either way.
Your opinion could not possibly hold less value, especially on the topic of the suffering of others. Your performative outrage is disgusting, at least I actually send aid to Palestine.
I said it was not the responsibility for the people outside the imperial core to take care of your children. You would rather other children suffer to have yours not, instead of fixing the system that originates from your fucking country
No you didn’t, you’re just doing the same bad faith word twisting to try to redeem your horrible statements. I have nothing more to say to you than you should be ashamed of yourself.
So your all proposing we purge every other year. Thats your best idea
“Hey we need to build proletarian organizations to channel political energy in a non-dead end direction”
You:
Thats not what was said. Anymore strawmen
Incredible bit to talk about “strawmanning” when you wrote this
Give your nose a honk and tell me what you hear
It’s a lot close to what you said than this:
is to what anyone said.
The system is “self-legitimazing” regardless of how many people choose not to vote. Consider the current president didn’t even get the majority of votes.
Instead of buying into the liberal myth that voting creates legitimacy, look at voting as choosing which boss you are going to fight.
The owner has set up this system where he says you get to choose the boss. Even if you do, at best you get to choose who interprets the owners orders. Spending all your time fighting for one boss or the other or against specifically the boss is the wrong thing to do. The correct thing to do is to fight to get rid of the owner and this system, to create a new system that is truly democratic, that will listen to the workers.
That is certainly not what I am advocating for when I say go vote for who you want to fight against.
Voting does not prevent you from building dual power.
And that has material consequences. To ignore that is to limit who you are able to work with.
So you’re saying if we vote for party1, all party2 members will magically disappear and we don’t have to fight them anymore?
Am I to take your question in good faith? Because I really don’t understand how you made this leap from what I said.
You said “Vote for who you want to fight against”, which may make sense in a videogame, but not irl, so I pointed out the contradiction.
I see. I should have said “vote for where you want to fight; in a concentration camp or in the streets”. I meant it reflects the quality of the fight, not that the fight goes away.
Except in Amerika you’re not voting for who you’re fighting against you’re simply voting for which mask the actual people in power put forth (the good pr nice mask (democrats), the tough and mean mask (republican)). The real boss is not the American president, or Congress, etc but the capitalists behind them who you very specifically get no vote on and to who your vote by design has no tangible material effect on.
That may be true for you, but it is not true for others. Any revolution predicated on ignoring the material reality of the masses is doomed to fail.
Being not Amerikan it is true for me in a way but not in the way you’re implying. You genuinely believe your vote at the Amerikan ballot box has tangible material effects on capitalists interests? That’s a pretty extreme stance that even most liberals would retreat from if pressed.
This is a nonsequitor that doesn’t address anything I said.
It’s only a non-sequitor if you replace what I said about the interests of the masses with the interests of the capitalist class.
Pushing “don’t even bother trying” is just supporting the fascists.
Both parties are fascist
If you hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”, then you really may as well not bother trying, bcs nothing you were trying was ever going to help, and most of it will just strengthen the fascists.
Please point to the part of the meme / title that encouraged voting for anyone let alone anything else. This is just disenpowerment and pushes the narrative that it’s hopeless to try anything at all under the guise of “liberals bad” (which I don’t necessarily disagree with, but this is training people to give up entirely)
So you really did hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”.
You, specifically, should absolutely give up and don’t bother trying.
If you actually thought this the only time you would give this response is when voting was actually occurring.
Capitalists must be so relieved that socialist and communist enclaves advocate disengaging from the electoral process, as if an afternoon or less spent voting, two if you vote in a primary, precludes one from otherwise protesting, organizing, or lifting a finger to resist.
Ah yes, because capitalists just hate it when leftists vote for capitalist parties as a matter of protest lmao
Capitalists hate this one simple trick!
voting is pointless and promoting the idea it does anything causes people to do less.
Cool. So you’re armed and ready, right?
“Oh if you correctly identify an issue with our current system then you must have organised a proletarian uprising that will be launched as soon as I ask it of you, otherwise your argument is moot.”
More like “You want to discourage people from voting and encourage rebellion because you’re a moronic accelerationist who has no clue what he’s actually suggesting.”
What lib podcast mentioned accelerationism? You guys all mention it now, and you do it wrong by the way. An accelerationist would vote democrat since they are more capable stewards of empire and the accelerationist wants capital to accumulate as quickly as possible.
Interesting. So aside from proving that you don’t know what accellerationists do or believe and that you literally cannot imagine any way to make a difference other than your quadrennial tilt at the windmills begging the ruling class for better crumbs, was there a point to your comment?
Funny, for people who hate having generalizations made about them, y’all certainly make a lot of generalizations.
By the way, quadrennial would mean that I only care during the midterms, since that’s what election season we’re in. Biannually is the word you’re looking for.
Gonna take that as a no
No, that doesn’t fit at all. I think you might have replied to the wrong comment? Or maybe you misread something?
Then explain your position.
Correctly identifying the issues with a system does not mean you have to have all solutions a disingenuous lazy asshole wants from you immediately.
Being able to deduce that voting for genociders does nothing good does not mean a person has to actively sit at the helm of a militant revolutionairy organisation.
We need solutions, not platitudes. Do you have any real solutions or are you going to say some vague bullshit like “organize”?
Yes
Sure you are. Just waiting for someone else to start it, right?
Start what, exactly?
Don’t play dumb.
Tell me
Why should I? So I can keep playing your sealion game?
No, the message should be to build a vanguard party that can channel violent sentiment in the direction of class struggle rather than voting liberal under the pretense of antifascism and damage control.