Gloomy

[…]the killing is done in a humane way. Both of these are ensured by the EU-BIO regulations […]

There is, to the beat of my knowledge, no difference in the methods of slaughtering for conventional and organic cattle in the EU. They are processed seperatly, but that is the only regulation i know of. Happy to be corrected if you know something else.
Some organic farm slaughter animals on their own, to ensure a humane death, so there is that i guess.

Still, this is where our moral framework differs then, as i do see it as unethical to kill any being without need. For me the knowledge that an animal had a good life isn’t enough.

For one i can’t guarantee that it was a good life: maybe they were mistreated without any control instance realising it. And of course we can’t ask them.

I wouldn’t apply that standard to humans.If a human child is murdered by somebody i would never say: It’s okay that they were killed, because they were a happy child with a good life. I don’t see why i should change this view just because it’s a non human animal beeing killed.

Differnt to many other vegans i am fine with you having a different moral position. I still think that i am right, but it is my truth. I have to and can live with different truths that contradict each other co-existing.

So, no hate from my side. I sincerely thank you for the information you have shared here, i have learned some things and feel that i have a better grasp of the matter at hand, while still feeling validated in my previous position. Thank you.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/consent

The word informed isn’t even brought up here. And looking for “informed consent” i only get things related to medical procedures.

consent must be informed.

Says who?

Once more, thanks.

Unfortunatly, this confirms what i suspected. Male cows, at the very least, are a byproduct of organic milk production. So consuming it still is contributing to animals being killed, albeit more indirectly.

For me, that is the red line i wouldn’t want to cross.

I don’t see how those male calves live a life in dignity, but i respect that your line is different from mine. Thanks again for giving me a glimpse into the industry, that was very informative.

Thanks. How do you proceed with the calves after they are separated? Are they sold, killed, kept, etc? Does what happens to them depend on a calves sex?

I don’t, since locks are inanimate objects that lack the ability to feel and think. Do those qualities apply to cows too?

I sincerely hope that you think humans should be asked for consent before impregnating them. But you don’t seem to think this applies to cows. What qualitie(s) does a cow lack, that a human animal has, to justify this distinction?

Hey, thanks for getting back to me. I’d be really interested in a follow up.

Let me start by stating that i am happy to learn more and don’t ask to get a “got ya” out of you. It’s great to have the possibility to talk to somebody who has real experience in the field (if you don’t mind me further enquiring of course).

• Cows get pregnant about once per year. When we have an actual bull with the herd, that interval is even shorter because the bull won’t consider milk production at all. He’ll jump on as soon as he smells she’s in heat.

So cows have one or two calves a year, with a dry period of 60 days, while giving milk for the rest of the year.

• There’s nothing forceful about artificial insemination and every statement in that direction is extremist bullshit spread by Peta Terrorists and other lowlifes

I have to disagree here. Dairy farmers are impragnating cows, either via natural or artifical methods, to make a profit selling their milk. Impregnating another sentient being that cannot consent to it, for no other reason than to profit from them, is by definition forceful in my opinion. I’d even say it is forceful regardless of the physical force the act of impragnation requiers.

• Wild cows also get pregnant every year, yes. They need to produce as much offspring as possible so the herd doesn’t die out and when there’s a bull present and the cow goes into heat, then there’s nothing stopping them.

That’s good to know. I suppose the herds size would be regulated trough predators. Most cows that exist in America and Europa wouldn’t survive in the wild, because they have been bred into milk or meat producers, but it’s good to know thad beeing pregnant is the norm for cows.

• Cows on organic farms often live into their teens and are usually only slaughtered when they develop severe health problems. Our oldest one is 16 years old as of last month and you can easily tell that she’s an extremely old lady. Wild cows have a way shorter life expectancy because they get hunted down by predators or die of an infection as soon as they show any kind of weakness or old age.

I’m really happy to hear this :) Since this reduces profit it really shows a genuine care about your families cows, since doing this while losing money must come out of respect and genuine care. e Is keeping cows alive into their teens or even late teens something only your family does or is it part of the general organic milk industry’s standards?

• A dignified existence for a cow is the ability to graze on fresh pastures, a roof over the head for bad weather, soft bedding for resting, a reasonablely sized herd for companionship and a painless death when her time has come.

• Separation of cows and calves is your only argument that has any kind of merit, but honestly most cows take it pretty well. A lot of farmers are actually exploring concepts where mother and calf are kept together, but those usually result in higher maintenance cost and slightly lower milk yield. And customers are just not ready to pay the difference.

Thanks for being honest about me having a point. Personaly i think not beeing seperated from their children should be part of a dignified existance. Even if you think that they take it well, that can by it’s nature only be an assumption.

I don’t have time for a deep dive rn, but wikipedia seems to disagree with you (i know, not a great source):

May i ask what happens with the babys? I mean, you propaly can’t afford to double your heard in size every year, that would run out of steam fast.

The thing that people like you […]

People like me? Who are they?

[…]always forget is that most farmers and especially organic farmers care a great deal about their kettles’ wellbeing and some of you would do well to remember that.

I don’t know about that. I belive and hope that farmers care for their animals, and i can imagine that espeacialy organic farmers indeed do care about their animals. I believe that you see your family as caring about their cows.

Considering how most of the livestock we have is not held on organic farms but is mass produced cattle on large scale farms that do live under horrendous circumstances, i don’t think that “most” farmers care about their animals as living beings that should be treated with respect. Maybe as an asset that has to be kept healthy enough to produce the desired product, but that often includes the very bare minimum of care (at least outside of organic farms).

Disclosure: Am Vegan. Don’t hate vegetarians.

I think it’s because many Vegans perceive Vegetarians as going half the way and then stopping dead.

From a vegan perspective meat eaters are doing something morally wrong. But many have grown up that way and are conditioned into normalizing meat consumption. Many haven’t questioned it ever, or reflexively defend it, because it is perceived as normal.

Vegetarians on the other hand seem to understand the problem of animals suffering. Many of them made an ethical decision not to eat meat… and then continue to contribute to animal suffering by consuming other animal products. Understanding that murder is bad and then deciding to commit it just a bit less directly, is a position many Vegans take as deeply harmful.

Personally i am grateful for every single animal saved. Reducing meat or going vegetarian are steps in a direcion i see as good and positive. In my ideal world we would all be Vegans, but i am grateful for every little step in that direction.

Now that is what i call an efficient way to filter out the trash from your group chat.

Still though, it never ceases to amuse me how that forceful impregnation BS is still floating around

Are you saying cows are not impregnated forcefully? Because artificial impregnation is used regularly by dairy farmers. Even when not, the time of impregnation, either by natural methods or artificially, is carefully selected with best milk production in mind.

How about you try getting a male and female pet and do a little study on how small the intervals in between litters really are

For cows it’s usually a dry period of 60 days, before they are impregnated again.

I’m not even sure what point you are trying to make here. Are you implying that wild cows would also be pregnatant as much as possible?

I’d be interested in what your criteria for a dignified existence are. For example, what is your stance on the separation of cow and calf? This happens in organic farming too. Regardless of the method of farming (organic or not) cows are slaughtered for meat at about 5 years of age, after bringing 2 or 3 calves into the world and about 15 years before their natural death. Do you regard that as a dignified existence?

As much as i regret linking to reddit here, i feel it is fair to also post the channels answer to the video.

https://www.reddit.com/r/kurzgesagt/comments/10jlyyk/kurzgesagt_statement_to_the_conflict_of_interest/

Most of this i don’t use my phone for anyway. I’ll use my current android phone for the rest, if needed.

Still going to wait and see if the Eu makes a move, but i won’t go back to fascist enabling corps.

Brinjal Bhajiius

Vr, as far as i understand it, is a hard no with any Linux.

There is not a single ounce of anything scientific provable in what you are saying. You are making shit up to justify hitting your children. That’s really it.

I mostly agree except for the initial phase of teaching a kid to listen and control themselves.

When would that be? It is a learning process for children to control themselves. Some grown ups haven’t mastered it.

The part of the brain that forces them to sit still and focus doesn’t really develop imo without some fear.

This is the core piece of your little theory, right? I challenge you to give me any reputable source, be it from a psychological or pedagogical paper. Just one. To the best of my knowledge, not a single developmental theory backs this up.

I wouldn’t at all advocate for beating your child, but when they are young a little spank sometimes that isn’t that bad seems scary as hell to them.

In other words, you are advocating for beating children. You have no idea how “a little spank” feels for your child. If they are scared about it afterwards it’s a little bit hypocritical to assume that it was not “that bad”.

It’s very effective to get them to learn to listen, to stop running around, that sort of thing. After you get past that point you can talk to them, it’s much easier.

“My child was running around and wouldn’t listen, so i spanked it.” Are you sure there are no other avenues available to get your child to listen?

Also you have to talk to them afterwards so they know you aren’t being mean

You just beat a person that has no way of protectong themselves against somebody much stronger and that they rely on for savty and security. That is mean. Even if you managed to convonce yourself that it’s not. It realy is.

but need them to learn to control themselves and not let their emotions take over all the time.

THEY ARE CHILDREN! Children have to learn to controll emotions. It’s part of growing up. The way to support them is to help them undersuand their emotions and giving them tools to deal with them. Don’t expect it to work imedeatly, it’s a process. Spanking them will teach them to suppress and bottle their emotion, because the single person they rely on for safety is hitting them if they don’t. You are not teaching your children to deal with emotions in a healty manor.

The kind of attitude you are talking about here is btw called adultism, which is a selective bias against children.

I am happy to read at least one sane voice amongst the sea of people who don’t understand that we are doing exactly what they are accusing us of doing by celebrating his death. I honestly am taken aback by the amount of people who think this is good.

There is a difference between not tolerating intolerance and actively calling for the killing of / celebrating the death of an intolerant person.

Yeah, i feel same-ish.

I used a save game modifier to unlock the cool stuff hidden behind the grind. Since then I spent some time building a base in a nice looking planet and flying around looking for a cool world.

Thing is, you are right: it gets old fast. Planets are boring. There are some cool combinations here and there, but 90% of them are just the same old same old. Seen them once, seen them all.

From time to time i still hop in, but it doesn’t grab me more than a couple of hours every six months or so.

Ai, loverslab comes to mind. Used that to kink the hell out of Sims back in the day.