Like, a lot of their behavior seems to be centered around gaining respect and focusing on having car drivers defer to bikes, while bikes slough off responsibility and behave dangerously.
For example, bike lanes. I, as a person who primarily drives a car, believe that what should happen is that the curb should be extended into the road, and bike lanes put up, on the curb, next to the sidewalk. If the goal is mitigating harm in the event of accident, then placing bikes beyond the curb will be the safest movement, rather than having them be a dedicated lane literally in the road. Having them be, ideally, up on the curb in their own dedicated lane is the safest solution we can come up with. The second, is that if there is no dedicated lane, they should be on the sidewalk not on the street.
We can do the math on collisions. A soft body going under 15 miles per hour with high alertness and high reaction time (a biker) is less likely to collide with another soft body going under 5 miles per hour with high alertness and high reaction time (a pedestrian), and if they do happen to collide, the injury will be very minimal.
But a soft body going under 15 miles per hour colliding with a 2 ton metal machine going 30 mph with lower reaction time (a car) is going to be more likely and lead to far more intense injuries for the biker.
But for some reason bike advocates don’t want the safer option, they want to be in the road. They want to be in the road with the cars while cars give them deference and while also completely ignoring traffic laws that vehicles on the road are meant to be following, including them.
I live in a large metro area, and I have not once seen a biker follow any kind of traffic laws. They don’t stop at stop signs, they don’t indicate turns, they don’t even stop at stop lights. They swerve out of the bike lane, into the crosswalk so that they can count as ‘pedestrians’ and then swerve back into the bike lane once they’ve gotten to the other side.
And given that, legally speaking, if there is any collision between my car and a biker, I am automatically considered at fault because I’m operating a motor vehicle, I want there to be as little chance of that as possible.
Like, I’ve got a long rant going here, but don’t get me wrong, what I want is for my town to be safer for bicycle travel, and for all of us to reduce our dependency on cars for travel, but when I see the way bikers behave it makes it hard for me to believe that that’s what they want.
I’m sorry… What? I’ve never met a cyclist who was on the road for any reason other than “it’s literally against the law to ride on the sidewalk”, assuming there even is a path for pedestrians to begin with. You’ve got it backwards lol. The people that design our infrastructure in the US are lobbied heavily by the car industry and incentivised to favor them while placating the poors on bikes by painting some shitty lines by the curb and calling it a day. Proper bike infrastructure doesn’t have the issues you mentioned.
The more appropriate term would have been confirmation bias, but I’m not sure if it does go both ways.
In this context, we have both confirmed our individual experiences in response to if we’ve seen rude bike riders (horrible over-simplification of the comment but I hope you get what I mean). A premise was proposed, you said it’s not possible since it’s not something you’ve personally seen, and I confirmed that it is possible because I have seen it.
You having not seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It sounds like it’s better where you are, and that’s great! Hopefully the rest of the world can catch up to that.
Yeah nah you’re pretty much right. What you’re seeing is I think the vehicular cycling style that John Forester advocated to his MAMIL cult. Cyclists only do that on Turtle Island. You should watch some videos of cycling in the Netherlands, it’s exactly how you describe there, except on streets where the speed limit is 30km (19M) per hour and few cars drive.
On Turtle Island, a lot of what you’re seeing is a practical response to poor infrastructure. Does the bike lane continue into the intersection? Do bikes get the same right of way as pedestrians in the intersection? Do drivers know that bikes have right of way in the intersection? Cause if bikes have to become pedestrians in order to not be cars, bikes will become pedestrians. That’s just safety, that’s just making the laws as they practically exist in terms of compliance work for them. I bet those cyclists would love a protected bike lane with raised crossings through intersections.
That’s gotta be hyperbole or confirmation bias if you’ve literally never seen a cyclist behave well. Or maybe the bike culture where you live is terrible. My primary experience with cyclists is either seeing them in bike lanes and thus not interacting with them or being stuck going slowly behind them until I can safely pass because they lack bike lanes or sidewalks that aren’t full of tree root bumps.
You know, it probably is confirmation bias, being honest. Though the culture could be terrible. But I honestly for the life of me cannot remember the last time I ever saw a biker stop at a stop sign, or a light. Though I do remember a hand turn signal a time or two though.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with wanting bike traffic to be separated for everyone’s sake. However, riding a bike on a sidewalk instead of in the road isn’t safer for anyone, which is why it’s illegal in many if not most US cities. I know it’s counterintuitive. Reading up about it might help curb some of your frustration though.
Do most bike advocacy groups actually advocate for not following traffic laws, or is that just something that a lot of bicyclists do because they think they can get away with it?
I agree that separating automobiles from cyclists is far more important for safety. I really like protected bike lanes for that reason. The barrier occupies a little space, but I think it’s a win both for drivers and cyclists.
I’ve also seen photos of some interesting bike lanes that were elevated above the road, but also below the sidewalk level (between the two).
Like, a lot of their behavior seems to be centered around gaining respect and focusing on having car drivers defer to bikes, while bikes slough off responsibility and behave dangerously.
For example, bike lanes. I, as a person who primarily drives a car, believe that what should happen is that the curb should be extended into the road, and bike lanes put up, on the curb, next to the sidewalk. If the goal is mitigating harm in the event of accident, then placing bikes beyond the curb will be the safest movement, rather than having them be a dedicated lane literally in the road. Having them be, ideally, up on the curb in their own dedicated lane is the safest solution we can come up with. The second, is that if there is no dedicated lane, they should be on the sidewalk not on the street.
We can do the math on collisions. A soft body going under 15 miles per hour with high alertness and high reaction time (a biker) is less likely to collide with another soft body going under 5 miles per hour with high alertness and high reaction time (a pedestrian), and if they do happen to collide, the injury will be very minimal.
But a soft body going under 15 miles per hour colliding with a 2 ton metal machine going 30 mph with lower reaction time (a car) is going to be more likely and lead to far more intense injuries for the biker.
But for some reason bike advocates don’t want the safer option, they want to be in the road. They want to be in the road with the cars while cars give them deference and while also completely ignoring traffic laws that vehicles on the road are meant to be following, including them.
I live in a large metro area, and I have not once seen a biker follow any kind of traffic laws. They don’t stop at stop signs, they don’t indicate turns, they don’t even stop at stop lights. They swerve out of the bike lane, into the crosswalk so that they can count as ‘pedestrians’ and then swerve back into the bike lane once they’ve gotten to the other side.
And given that, legally speaking, if there is any collision between my car and a biker, I am automatically considered at fault because I’m operating a motor vehicle, I want there to be as little chance of that as possible.
Like, I’ve got a long rant going here, but don’t get me wrong, what I want is for my town to be safer for bicycle travel, and for all of us to reduce our dependency on cars for travel, but when I see the way bikers behave it makes it hard for me to believe that that’s what they want.
I’m sorry… What? I’ve never met a cyclist who was on the road for any reason other than “it’s literally against the law to ride on the sidewalk”, assuming there even is a path for pedestrians to begin with. You’ve got it backwards lol. The people that design our infrastructure in the US are lobbied heavily by the car industry and incentivised to favor them while placating the poors on bikes by painting some shitty lines by the curb and calling it a day. Proper bike infrastructure doesn’t have the issues you mentioned.
ive seen them on the sidewalk all the time.
Selection bias. Just because you don’t see it in your area doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I’ve certainly seen it
Doesn’t that go both ways?
The more appropriate term would have been confirmation bias, but I’m not sure if it does go both ways.
In this context, we have both confirmed our individual experiences in response to if we’ve seen rude bike riders (horrible over-simplification of the comment but I hope you get what I mean). A premise was proposed, you said it’s not possible since it’s not something you’ve personally seen, and I confirmed that it is possible because I have seen it.
You having not seen it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It sounds like it’s better where you are, and that’s great! Hopefully the rest of the world can catch up to that.
Yeah nah you’re pretty much right. What you’re seeing is I think the vehicular cycling style that John Forester advocated to his MAMIL cult. Cyclists only do that on Turtle Island. You should watch some videos of cycling in the Netherlands, it’s exactly how you describe there, except on streets where the speed limit is 30km (19M) per hour and few cars drive.
On Turtle Island, a lot of what you’re seeing is a practical response to poor infrastructure. Does the bike lane continue into the intersection? Do bikes get the same right of way as pedestrians in the intersection? Do drivers know that bikes have right of way in the intersection? Cause if bikes have to become pedestrians in order to not be cars, bikes will become pedestrians. That’s just safety, that’s just making the laws as they practically exist in terms of compliance work for them. I bet those cyclists would love a protected bike lane with raised crossings through intersections.
I think those are a lot of good points
Thanks!
That’s gotta be hyperbole or confirmation bias if you’ve literally never seen a cyclist behave well. Or maybe the bike culture where you live is terrible. My primary experience with cyclists is either seeing them in bike lanes and thus not interacting with them or being stuck going slowly behind them until I can safely pass because they lack bike lanes or sidewalks that aren’t full of tree root bumps.
You know, it probably is confirmation bias, being honest. Though the culture could be terrible. But I honestly for the life of me cannot remember the last time I ever saw a biker stop at a stop sign, or a light. Though I do remember a hand turn signal a time or two though.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with wanting bike traffic to be separated for everyone’s sake. However, riding a bike on a sidewalk instead of in the road isn’t safer for anyone, which is why it’s illegal in many if not most US cities. I know it’s counterintuitive. Reading up about it might help curb some of your frustration though.
I could definitely do that, and I probably should.
Also, haha, curb your frustration.
Do most bike advocacy groups actually advocate for not following traffic laws, or is that just something that a lot of bicyclists do because they think they can get away with it?
I agree that separating automobiles from cyclists is far more important for safety. I really like protected bike lanes for that reason. The barrier occupies a little space, but I think it’s a win both for drivers and cyclists.
I’ve also seen photos of some interesting bike lanes that were elevated above the road, but also below the sidewalk level (between the two).