And you think wrestling is the space where artful stunts are happening? Be for real.
Kitsch isn’t an insult. A lot of things we love are kitsch. It’s just a designator between that which used the techniques and skills of art to create that which entertains but does not meet the trappings of art. Hubble miniatures are kitsch. Most sitcoms are kitsch. And wrestling is absolutely, 100% kitsch.
But you’re basically saying “I’ve never seen a good example of pro wrestling being art, so it must not exist.”
If it’s not your thing, that’s fine, but going out of your way to say “this entire genre is actually lesser than REAL art” is pretty silly. It’s judgemental and also pretty close minded. It’s what I used to do as a teenager.
What is the subtextual message of wrestling? What greater point of the human condition does it point to?
Saying fast food isn’t haute cuisine isn’t being close-minded, it’s being accurate. Same shit applies here.
You aren’t being open minded, you’re lacking discernment.
And again, this isn’t even a value assessment. I’m not going to lie, I personally think wrestling is stupid, but I’m not insulting it by calling it kitsch. We all love tons of things that are kitsch; kitsch is not a negative. It’s just not art, holy fucking shit, people.
Art is a word with so many different but overlapping definitions that it’s honestly not a very useful word, but the ones that rely on Importance™️ or Beauty™️ are the dumbest ones. Mainly because who are you to decide what’s Important™️? More often than not it just boils down to “stuff rich white Europeans like.”
Where did I once say importance or beauty? That’s not what defines art. I asked what the subtextual message is and what greater message about the human condition does it point to?
It just has the same energy as Roger Ebert’s weird essay about how video games can’t possibly be art. Do you also not think games, movies, tv, plays, dances, etc are not art?
Hopefully you know that “pro wrestling” is an incredibly broad term, and if you’re only thinking about WWE, you’re only getting a piece of the picture. But even beyond that, even if every single CURRENT production of pro wrestling was actually this “kitche” term that you describe, can you maybe see the absurdity in thinking that it’s literally impossible for it to be art going forward? You can’t imagine a compelling narrative that also includes some people doing over-the-top gymnastics on top of each other?
I guess… Why is it important to broadly dismiss an entire genre of performance as “not art”? Wouldn’t you rather describe your view as “so far what I’ve seen hasn’t been art to me, and I don’t really care to investigate further” and leave it at that?
Wouldn’t you rather describe your view as “so far what I’ve seen hasn’t been art to me, and I don’t really care to investigate further” and leave it at that?
I guess I just believe in people’s ability to use deductive reasoning and common sense and don’t feel the need to couch my statements in every possible caveat.
Plenty of games, movies, tv, dances, are explicitly art. Plenty of them are also not.
I believe in the indomitable human spirit and the endless potential of human creativity. I believe anything can be made art through human determination and inspiration. Of course I believe wrestling can be art because nothing humanity touches is outside the realm of art. And of course I concede that without having witnessed the whole of wrestling, it’s possible art has been made in or through it. None of that changes my position that wrestling, as standard, is not art. I don’t understand what you or anyone gains from intentionally missing the forest for the trees by insisting on pedantry and narrowing on hypotheticals, edge cases, and exceptions while ignoring the reality of the mundane standard.
I’m so tired of having to say shit like “in my opinion” and “I think” as if people can’t fucking infer the obvious; this is the same.
Performance kitsch, let’s not sully the word “art” unnecessarily here
What part of this isnt art to you?
I still don’t know whether it is supposed to be comedy or not, but thats a separate discussion
What fucking part of that is art? Do you people just think that all media is automatically art?
It is okay to be entertained, have fun. Just don’t put your fun entertainment in the same category as The fucking Odyssey or a goddamn Rothko.
Gate keeping art is as old as art itself.
So is not getting it.
The plots are shit, the acting is over the top, but let’s not pretend prat falls and false punches can’t be art when done well.
And you think wrestling is the space where artful stunts are happening? Be for real.
Kitsch isn’t an insult. A lot of things we love are kitsch. It’s just a designator between that which used the techniques and skills of art to create that which entertains but does not meet the trappings of art. Hubble miniatures are kitsch. Most sitcoms are kitsch. And wrestling is absolutely, 100% kitsch.
So if it’s popular it’s not art.
People like you are why Ferraris aren’t in art museums.
Tons of popular things are art. Nothing I said suggested otherwise.
But you’re basically saying “I’ve never seen a good example of pro wrestling being art, so it must not exist.”
If it’s not your thing, that’s fine, but going out of your way to say “this entire genre is actually lesser than REAL art” is pretty silly. It’s judgemental and also pretty close minded. It’s what I used to do as a teenager.
What is the subtextual message of wrestling? What greater point of the human condition does it point to?
Saying fast food isn’t haute cuisine isn’t being close-minded, it’s being accurate. Same shit applies here.
You aren’t being open minded, you’re lacking discernment.
And again, this isn’t even a value assessment. I’m not going to lie, I personally think wrestling is stupid, but I’m not insulting it by calling it kitsch. We all love tons of things that are kitsch; kitsch is not a negative. It’s just not art, holy fucking shit, people.
Art is a word with so many different but overlapping definitions that it’s honestly not a very useful word, but the ones that rely on Importance™️ or Beauty™️ are the dumbest ones. Mainly because who are you to decide what’s Important™️? More often than not it just boils down to “stuff rich white Europeans like.”
Where did I once say importance or beauty? That’s not what defines art. I asked what the subtextual message is and what greater message about the human condition does it point to?
It just has the same energy as Roger Ebert’s weird essay about how video games can’t possibly be art. Do you also not think games, movies, tv, plays, dances, etc are not art?
Hopefully you know that “pro wrestling” is an incredibly broad term, and if you’re only thinking about WWE, you’re only getting a piece of the picture. But even beyond that, even if every single CURRENT production of pro wrestling was actually this “kitche” term that you describe, can you maybe see the absurdity in thinking that it’s literally impossible for it to be art going forward? You can’t imagine a compelling narrative that also includes some people doing over-the-top gymnastics on top of each other?
I guess… Why is it important to broadly dismiss an entire genre of performance as “not art”? Wouldn’t you rather describe your view as “so far what I’ve seen hasn’t been art to me, and I don’t really care to investigate further” and leave it at that?
I guess I just believe in people’s ability to use deductive reasoning and common sense and don’t feel the need to couch my statements in every possible caveat.
Plenty of games, movies, tv, dances, are explicitly art. Plenty of them are also not.
I believe in the indomitable human spirit and the endless potential of human creativity. I believe anything can be made art through human determination and inspiration. Of course I believe wrestling can be art because nothing humanity touches is outside the realm of art. And of course I concede that without having witnessed the whole of wrestling, it’s possible art has been made in or through it. None of that changes my position that wrestling, as standard, is not art. I don’t understand what you or anyone gains from intentionally missing the forest for the trees by insisting on pedantry and narrowing on hypotheticals, edge cases, and exceptions while ignoring the reality of the mundane standard.
I’m so tired of having to say shit like “in my opinion” and “I think” as if people can’t fucking infer the obvious; this is the same.