• Steve@communick.newsEnglish
      72·
      5 hours ago

      China certainly has many problems. They build whole cities for millions of people that are functional ghost towns. They build incredible bridges in record time, while nearly 20% are closed or collapsed within 10 years. They’re nearly as nationalist and xenophobic as most of the worst regimes in history.

      But it’s also true they’ve been killing it economically. And performed what was thought impossible over the last 40 years.

      • ghost_laptop@lemmy.mlM
        6·
        5 hours ago

        you had to do one search to find most of what you’ve said is false

        Underoccupied developments in China are mostly unoccupied newly built property developments in China, and frequently referred to as “ghost cities” or ghost towns. The phenomenon was claimed and recorded as early as 2009 by Al Jazeera’s Melissa Chan and subsequently reported by news media over the decades.[1][2][3][4] Although a feature of discourse on the Chinese economy and urbanization in China in the 2010s, many developments that were initially criticized as “ghost cities” in China have since become occupied and are now functioning cities.[5][6][7][8]

        China’s government has set a goal to raise the nation’s urbanization rate to around 75% by 2035, which may require the construction of an estimated 40 to 50 million new housing units to accommodate this shift.[9] Some observers argue that China’s so-called “ghost cities” are better understood as ambitious urbanization projects built ahead of demand.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underoccupied_developments_in_China

        they don’t have “ghost cities” they have something called planned economy. in a planned economy the state plans to improve the lives of the proletariat. so essentially they are creating house for people to live instead of them being used for upping some numbers on a spreadsheet.

        • Steve@communick.newsEnglish
          13·
          4 hours ago

          Most? I mentioned 4 things. You “debunked” one.
          If they filled those cities, that’s great. It only took 20 years. And it’s certainly better than keeping people homeless.

          Their construction still doesn’t have a great track record for longevity. A number of those skyscrapers have collapsed also. Who knows how many have died in them. We certainly don’t, because the Chinese government never gives out information like that. They constantly lie and obfuscate, even disappear whistle blowers. People live in fear of saying things they know the government won’t like.

          How reliable is the census data for those cities? We don’t know.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
            2·
            4 hours ago

            This is, again, not true. You have a caricature of China in your head, not an accurate picture of China. People don’t live in fear, data is reliable. China has some of the best perceptions surrounding their country’s democracy in the world:

            From NIRA data.

            • Steve@communick.newsEnglish
              13·
              3 hours ago

              I’m sure we both have inaccurate views of life in China. You don’t sound like you’ve spent much time living their either. I’d assume we’re both quite wrong in many ways.

              But generally, self reported data of people’s opinions isn’t all that reliable actually. What people say they think, is often different than what their actions reveal. There are numerous biases and motivations in answering these kinds of questions.

              And in a single party state with a multi-generational history of violent suppression of critical voices? I’d expect the data is even less reliable.

                • Steve@communick.newsEnglish
                  1·
                  1 hour ago

                  I never said it wasn’t.
                  I’m sure it’s the most accurate data we have.
                  I’m just saying that survey data generally, be it about governments, or media streaming habits, aren’t all that accurate.

                  I don’t doubt that the Chinese public has an overall more favorable view of their government than the Americans, French, or Brits do of theirs. Those governments have been less effective at improving their peoples lives. Hell even I have a more favorable view of the Chinese government than both of my governments major parties. But that still doesn’t mean that everything in China is fantastic. They do have lots of deep rooted problems. Much like most nations and societies.

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
        41·
        4 hours ago

        They build whole cities for millions of people that are functional ghost towns.

        This is the western cope for what is in practice intelligent economic planning. These “ghost towns” are regularly populated later, it’s anticipated and planned growth.

        They build incredible bridges in record time, while nearly 20% are closed or collapsed within 10 years

        Not really true. China’s infrastructure is good, the problem is the urban/rural gap due to how rapidly China is advancing.

        They’re nearly as nationalist and xenophobic as most of the worst regimes in history.

        Absurdly false. China is a strong internationalist country, and in government ethnic minorities are statistically better represented than Han Chinese, with strong minority protections. China raises multilateral development and cooperative agreements.

        But it’s also true they’ve been killing it economically. And performed what was thought impossible over the last 40 years.

        This part is definitely true, and as time goes on the cope arguments will also break down. The people who knew this was possible were the communists, both inside and outside of China. Communists are going to be the ones in power this century, and beyond.

        • Steve@communick.newsEnglish
          2·
          4 hours ago

          The people who knew this was possible were the communists, both inside and outside of China. Communists are going to be the ones in power this century, and beyond.

          It’s hard to call China communist any more. They’ve embraced the strengths of communism and capitalism, even maybe socialism. Using aspects of each where they’re most effective.

          Which is the best way realy. There’s no one system that’ll always give the best results to every situation. The best result comes from the proper application of the appropriate system for that specific situation.

          And honestly the issues in the west aren’t so much with actual capitalism itself. But with stupid leaders, and political systems that encourage short term thinking over long term stuardship. China’s strength comes more from being a single party, with intelligent leadership focused on the long term health and power of the nation. But that long term vision causes them to overlook and dismiss real short term pain and problems.

          They are certainly doing better than much of the world, but the costs for that shouldn’t be ignored or minimized. Refusing to publicly acknowledge and correct their mistakes, will eventually be the weakness that brings them down in 50-150 years.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
            2·
            4 hours ago

            It’s hard to call China communist any more. They’ve embraced the strengths of communism and capitalism, even maybe socialism. Using aspects of each where they’re most effective.

            I think you’re misunderstanding capitalism, socialism, and communism. China is and has been under communist leadership since 1949, yet not once has their mode of production been “communist.” Communism is the goal of communist parties, itself a future, global economy where all production and distribution has finally been collectivized, and is run along a common plan to fulfill everyone’s needs. Between capitalism and this future state of being is socialism.

            Rewinding backwards, capitalism emerged out of feudalism, and is a mode of production and distribution where private ownership is the principal aspect of the economy, and capitalists own the state. It is not an aspect of a system, but a system itself. Capitalism is really good at socializing production, bringing everyone together into one unified system, but as this goes on the contradiction between socialized production and privatized profits grows greater and greater. This results in revolutionary pressure.

            Socialism, then, is a mode of production and distribution where public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy, and the working classes control the state. China has been socialist since 1949. China did not abandon socialism with the adoption of Reform and Opening Up under Deng Xiaoping, it opened up secondary and underdeveloped industry to foreign investment, while retaining public ownership of the large firms and key industries and working class control of the state. It borrowed the ability of markets to accelerate socialization for the least socialized aspects of the economy, while socializing the social surplus, rather than privatizing it.

            This is all in the service of building communism, which has been laid out in a simple diagram by Cheng Enfu:

            I hope that highly oversimplified synopsis can help explain how this is entirely within communist theory.

            But that long term vision causes them to overlook and dismiss real short term pain and problems. Refusing to publicly acknowledge and correct their mistakes, will eventually be the weakness that brings them down in 50-150 years.

            I don’t believe this is accurate. China is a developing country, in developing rapidly there definitely arose new contradictions. There’s now a larger capitalist class, a steeper urban/rural divide, and other problems. However, the CPC is not blind to them. State control over capital is increased as industries develop, the “birdcage” is tightened and capital’s freedom to move is strictly controlled and ever-shrinking. Rural development has been a major focus, to bring the living standards in rural areas closer to that of urban living. This is all being done intelligently, in planned fashion.

            There is no such thing as a society devoid of problems. What makes China (and socialist countries in general) special is the ability for humanity to take an active role in shaping the future, scientifically, without capital dominating us.