It’s really more of a matter of the fact that the type of men that do approach me when I’d otherwise want to be left alone are a problem. I understand that there are plenty of guys who aren’t like that, but I experience a disproportionately large amount of…not so great men. It’s usually incredibly easy to tell if someone is genuinely complimenting me, or if they’re just trying to get in my pants there. There are so many micro expressions that give it away. And to be frank, if someone seemed nervous and approached me respectfully, I’d usually be quite nice in return, granted that they don’t check an item off my list of no-nos. It’s not men who have good intentions that piss me off, and I realized after posting that initial comment that this post is in a community that doesn’t have much of the same context I’m used to. If I posted that in a women’s space (which is usually where I’m found), other women would know exactly who I’m talking about without me having to clarify.
I think there’s a lot to be said about the issue of overthinking in the way you seem to be. The real enemy here is toxic masculinity that pushes a misogynistic agenda, it isn’t just men. It’s a specific social construct that is used to indoctrinate men. I feel bad for those who feel as if simply the act of being a man is something to be ashamed of. You can be a man and be a good person; the two aren’t mutually exclusive. I do, despite my ranting, know good men that I talk with regularly and get along with just fine. And someone approaching me with more wholesome intentions is not gonna get the horns, so to speak.
I do want to bring one thing up though. As a woman, it is fatiguing to have misogynistic assholes come up to you out of the blue. And the fact that it happens as often as it does makes it harder to feel optimistic about being approached by a man. There is a massive problem currently with gender division/exclusion. It’s based upon the fact that humans tend to generalize people so much. That’s motivated by our experiences, as our brains love to search for patterns in behaviors. Which means that when we experience one negative thing a lot, it becomes easy to “throw out the baby with the bathwater”, so to speak. I have no intention of leaving men as a whole out to dry, but I’ve noticed that there’s a lot of hostility there. I think the problem that we have, perhaps one of the biggest problems with society right now, is a lack of empathy. Which, if you’ve caught on, is exactly what toxic masculinity pushes. But women’s exposure to that toxic masculinity pushes it, too. We need some serious societal change to happen in order to even begin fixing these problems. And that change isn’t just going to come from women. It has to come from men who understand the atrocity of misogyny and toxic masculinity, too. After all, if men keep pushing for toxic masculinity, and keep accepting it, then the problem will only continue to get worse.
I also want to make myself clear: if you choose to compliment a woman, like by complimenting her hair, for instance, body language is incredibly important. The difference between someone who is genuinely complimenting me and someone who is trying to get in my pants is usually very obvious. And I think it’s very important not to simply make a show of complimenting a woman, regardless of what you say. What I mean by this is, have a normal conversation with her. Ask her (appropriate) things about herself, get to know her, compliment the things that matter in ways that show you see her as a person, and do so as part of a larger conversation (maybe it’s just me, but I don’t consider a conversation “normal” if someone is doing nothing but showering me in compliments; that feels weird, even if they’re genuine). You’ll have a much better chance of getting asked for coffee (or her accepting your request) if she feels like you care about her as a person. Now, I don’t have advice for one night stands, I just don’t do that and I don’t know how to play that game at all. I mean, technically, I do as a lesbian, but we flirt very differently. But I have a feeling that you aren’t angling at that anyway.
Tbh, I understand feeling like “other people do it better than you”. But what matters to me is someone’s personality. It isn’t just “they’re so good at this thing or that”, it’s “wow, we really play off each other well and kinda just fit together”. I don’t just approach the most attractive woman in the room, for instance. I’m much more drawn to people who give off the vibes I like to be around, and I have a sneaking suspicion that isn’t just a lesbian thing. Which is exactly why I prefer to just get to know someone rather than play the game of who can compliment the other person more. Romantic interest for me has very little to do with looks, or unique skills, or whatever shallow thing people might brag about themselves. It has much more to do with who a person is inside, and if that fits my own personality well. What kinds of things do they like? What kinds of opinions do they have? Where do they take the conversation, and how do they play off what I say? I don’t know if I’m in the minority there, but for me, that means anyone can really be an option. Someone doesn’t need to be the best at something, they just need to be themselves, and when they are, that tells me if we’d work.
I don’t have advice for you on how to get out there and meet people, because my main way of doing that is all queer-oriented activities. It’s much easier to find my people when I’m literally surrounded by them. But I guess, the same would apply to hobby activities? You can meet likeminded people who you have a better chance of getting along with just by doing something you both like together. What I’d caution against doing is going up to random people in a bar (unless you’re looking for a one night stand? Idk the rules there, but I mean, I’m not in that game to begin with) or on the street, or in any place where people are just running errands or getting through their day. People are much more open to talking with others when they’re doing something they’re passionate about (and you’re also interested in).
Anyway, TL;DR: I don’t mean to imply that all men are like the ones that come up to me and make me uncomfortable. There are some real societal issues pushing the divide between genders, one of great prominence being toxic masculinity (and by extension misogyny). I don’t really have a solution to that problem, so I cope with it in the best way I can for my own mental health. It’s easy to fall into the trap of feeling ashamed of your own gender, and I get that, but it’s not you that’s the problem. And I don’t think that it’s pointless to try meeting new people, it’s just harder these days to do that organically, so you’ve gotta find ways to find other likeminded people who are looking to meet others.
That makes sense. The type of guys who aren’t like that don’t really approach women anymore, because the whole online discourse kinda indicates that women don’t want to be bothered and the guys who respect boundaries respond by leaving them alone.
It’s sad that so many men are misogynistic jerks. I’m sure they’ve always existed, but I think their prevalence nowadays has a lot to do with a combination of social media, right-wing grift, and kremlin psyop money. It’s been documented that there’s a lot of overlap between the manosphere, right-wing grifters, and russian-paid actors. Even Russia itself has publicly said that it’s waging a hybrid war to destroy the fabric of western society from within. And where else would these “manfluencers” be getting their sudden and inexplicable fortunes from?
Unfortunately, a lot of young men and boys are vulnerable to that kind of influence. They lack positive role models, and social media funnels them into these sort of spaces with their algorithms. The problem is complex, and any potential solutions need to be complex to address it. But I think a few key things will include degrifting social media (and the fediverse is one way to make that happen), providing young people (of all genders) with positive role models and opportunities to receive mentorship (funding education is a good place to start, and also providing extracurricular activities in the civil sector where people can volunteer for causes they care about and legitimately feel they’re making a difference), and healing the rift between genders (which will be difficult because there’s a lot of bad blood, but cycles of hatred only self-perpetuate). Manfluencers would lose their audience if they couldn’t play off the grievance that so many disenchanted young men and boys feel they’re being left behind and no longer have a place in society. If those same men and boys had more healthy social interactions in gender-diverse settings, they’d be more likely to see women as people and not fall for the caricature of the “angry radfem.”
I’m not saying the impetus is entirely on women to forgive and forget, but there’s a lot of societal healing that needs to be done, and it will take a long time, maybe generations, but it can’t be done by only one side. Men certainly have a responsibility for detoxifying male-dominated spaces, but it can’t be only on men, because patriarchy and toxic masculinity are perpetuated by men and women alike.
For instance, how does a man address toxic masculinity and harmful patriarchal expectations imposed on men, if topics like “men’s liberation” are viewed as inherently redpilled incel fringe? There have been times when I’ve tried to call out patterns of toxic masculinity and the societal ways they’re enforced, but people are way to quick to pigeon hole everything into the closest-sounding trope, so then they call me a “nice guy” or an “incel” and other nasty names. Seems like a losing battle.
I mean, I often can’t even talk about problems that men commonly face without being skewered online by people assuming I’m just brainwashed by the manosphere and mindlessly repeating dogwhistles, instead of genuinely concerned about problems that I’ve faced and have noticed other men facing. If there’s no way to have a collaborative discussion about these problems, then it’s going to continue perpetuating this “us vs. them” mentality that drives so many impressionable young people into the extremes.
I understand it’s exhausting on your part to try to deal with, and believe me, I truly wish you didn’t have to put up with toxic men. If society is going to overcome this trend, men and women need to work together to do so. From my perspective, it really hurts to be lumped into a category with the jerks, especially when I can’t even say “not all men are like that” without being mocked. Or if I talk about “misandry,” people claim it doesn’t exist, it’s a made-up problem, it’s just a misogynistic dogwhistle, and they assume I mean it as “criticizing legitimately bad behavior from men” when I really mean it as “painting all men with the same brush, assuming all of them are as bad as the worst among them.”
I understand how easy it is to generalize, though. Sometimes I’ve found myself thinking about “women” as a general category, as if they all think the same way as the meanest man-hating redditor online (even the meanest are probably just carrying a lot of pain). It’s hard to remember that some feminists still actually follow the example of bell hooks, who didn’t hate men and viewed them as victims of patriarchy who required healing too.
We’re hard-wired to generalize. Schemas and heuristics are both well-known phenomena in different fields of psychology. It has evolutionary value, i.e. “Big orange cat = danger!” But evolution hasn’t exactly equipped us for modern life (our entire stress response system is optimized for wilderness survival situations, not deadlines and commitments), and purely evolutionary behaviors are often maladaptive in civilized society.
I agree that the lack of empathy is a key part of it. It’s a really tough situation, because universal empathy is not the default. Society had to evolve to the point where empathy between strangers was commonplace, and once it got there, it was still fragile and there were always people who were against in. Those people have been feeling emboldened by recent events, and what was left of the shared empathy was shattered. It takes a lot to heal that wound. Feuds don’t dissolve overnight. There’s a lot of pain and anger on all sides, some of it justifiable, and forgiveness and healing isn’t easy even when the preconditions of remorse and behavioral change are met. And that requires willingness from all sides. I really wish there was an easier and more straightforward path to reconciliation, but seeking simplistic solutions to complex problems is often how those problems get even worse and more complex.
And I appreciate your dating advice, but I’m past the point where I can use it. I’m too burnt out and disillusioned, I’ve been rejected enough for three lifetimes, and I don’t need to put myself through that pain anymore. It’s easier to keep my walls up than to let down my drawbridge and get hurt.
It’s not easy to get to know someone’s personality when their first thought when they see you is “potential predator.” Especially when I’m shy and awkward, I notice people tend to find my nervousness off-putting and they think I’m up to no good. I can’t keep up with witty banter in real time, and when I seem hesitant and people see my gears turning, they tend to think I’m being calculating and manipulative rather than scouring the blank surface of my mind for literally anything to say that won’t sound stupid.
What charred remains of my personality are left are bitter and cynical. Even if I expose my softest, most excitable core, people think I’m a spaz or a freak. If I unmask and infodump about my special interests, people tell me to stop mansplaining and other mean things like that. Okay, so I can’t talk about my passions, but I’m supposed to be open, vulnerable, and interesting? I’m supposed to be charming without seeming fake, when my natural authentic state is super-cringe-level-awkward? I don’t need to keep embarrassing myself by exposing myself to rejection. It’s taken me a long time to come to terms with the fact that I’ll probably never find love again. I’ve had it before, and I let it slip through my fingers because I was stupid, so I just tell myself this is my punishment for letting go of what I had.
It’s really more of a matter of the fact that the type of men that do approach me when I’d otherwise want to be left alone are a problem. I understand that there are plenty of guys who aren’t like that, but I experience a disproportionately large amount of…not so great men. It’s usually incredibly easy to tell if someone is genuinely complimenting me, or if they’re just trying to get in my pants there. There are so many micro expressions that give it away. And to be frank, if someone seemed nervous and approached me respectfully, I’d usually be quite nice in return, granted that they don’t check an item off my list of no-nos. It’s not men who have good intentions that piss me off, and I realized after posting that initial comment that this post is in a community that doesn’t have much of the same context I’m used to. If I posted that in a women’s space (which is usually where I’m found), other women would know exactly who I’m talking about without me having to clarify.
I think there’s a lot to be said about the issue of overthinking in the way you seem to be. The real enemy here is toxic masculinity that pushes a misogynistic agenda, it isn’t just men. It’s a specific social construct that is used to indoctrinate men. I feel bad for those who feel as if simply the act of being a man is something to be ashamed of. You can be a man and be a good person; the two aren’t mutually exclusive. I do, despite my ranting, know good men that I talk with regularly and get along with just fine. And someone approaching me with more wholesome intentions is not gonna get the horns, so to speak.
I do want to bring one thing up though. As a woman, it is fatiguing to have misogynistic assholes come up to you out of the blue. And the fact that it happens as often as it does makes it harder to feel optimistic about being approached by a man. There is a massive problem currently with gender division/exclusion. It’s based upon the fact that humans tend to generalize people so much. That’s motivated by our experiences, as our brains love to search for patterns in behaviors. Which means that when we experience one negative thing a lot, it becomes easy to “throw out the baby with the bathwater”, so to speak. I have no intention of leaving men as a whole out to dry, but I’ve noticed that there’s a lot of hostility there. I think the problem that we have, perhaps one of the biggest problems with society right now, is a lack of empathy. Which, if you’ve caught on, is exactly what toxic masculinity pushes. But women’s exposure to that toxic masculinity pushes it, too. We need some serious societal change to happen in order to even begin fixing these problems. And that change isn’t just going to come from women. It has to come from men who understand the atrocity of misogyny and toxic masculinity, too. After all, if men keep pushing for toxic masculinity, and keep accepting it, then the problem will only continue to get worse.
I also want to make myself clear: if you choose to compliment a woman, like by complimenting her hair, for instance, body language is incredibly important. The difference between someone who is genuinely complimenting me and someone who is trying to get in my pants is usually very obvious. And I think it’s very important not to simply make a show of complimenting a woman, regardless of what you say. What I mean by this is, have a normal conversation with her. Ask her (appropriate) things about herself, get to know her, compliment the things that matter in ways that show you see her as a person, and do so as part of a larger conversation (maybe it’s just me, but I don’t consider a conversation “normal” if someone is doing nothing but showering me in compliments; that feels weird, even if they’re genuine). You’ll have a much better chance of getting asked for coffee (or her accepting your request) if she feels like you care about her as a person. Now, I don’t have advice for one night stands, I just don’t do that and I don’t know how to play that game at all. I mean, technically, I do as a lesbian, but we flirt very differently. But I have a feeling that you aren’t angling at that anyway.
Tbh, I understand feeling like “other people do it better than you”. But what matters to me is someone’s personality. It isn’t just “they’re so good at this thing or that”, it’s “wow, we really play off each other well and kinda just fit together”. I don’t just approach the most attractive woman in the room, for instance. I’m much more drawn to people who give off the vibes I like to be around, and I have a sneaking suspicion that isn’t just a lesbian thing. Which is exactly why I prefer to just get to know someone rather than play the game of who can compliment the other person more. Romantic interest for me has very little to do with looks, or unique skills, or whatever shallow thing people might brag about themselves. It has much more to do with who a person is inside, and if that fits my own personality well. What kinds of things do they like? What kinds of opinions do they have? Where do they take the conversation, and how do they play off what I say? I don’t know if I’m in the minority there, but for me, that means anyone can really be an option. Someone doesn’t need to be the best at something, they just need to be themselves, and when they are, that tells me if we’d work.
I don’t have advice for you on how to get out there and meet people, because my main way of doing that is all queer-oriented activities. It’s much easier to find my people when I’m literally surrounded by them. But I guess, the same would apply to hobby activities? You can meet likeminded people who you have a better chance of getting along with just by doing something you both like together. What I’d caution against doing is going up to random people in a bar (unless you’re looking for a one night stand? Idk the rules there, but I mean, I’m not in that game to begin with) or on the street, or in any place where people are just running errands or getting through their day. People are much more open to talking with others when they’re doing something they’re passionate about (and you’re also interested in).
Anyway, TL;DR: I don’t mean to imply that all men are like the ones that come up to me and make me uncomfortable. There are some real societal issues pushing the divide between genders, one of great prominence being toxic masculinity (and by extension misogyny). I don’t really have a solution to that problem, so I cope with it in the best way I can for my own mental health. It’s easy to fall into the trap of feeling ashamed of your own gender, and I get that, but it’s not you that’s the problem. And I don’t think that it’s pointless to try meeting new people, it’s just harder these days to do that organically, so you’ve gotta find ways to find other likeminded people who are looking to meet others.
That makes sense. The type of guys who aren’t like that don’t really approach women anymore, because the whole online discourse kinda indicates that women don’t want to be bothered and the guys who respect boundaries respond by leaving them alone.
It’s sad that so many men are misogynistic jerks. I’m sure they’ve always existed, but I think their prevalence nowadays has a lot to do with a combination of social media, right-wing grift, and kremlin psyop money. It’s been documented that there’s a lot of overlap between the manosphere, right-wing grifters, and russian-paid actors. Even Russia itself has publicly said that it’s waging a hybrid war to destroy the fabric of western society from within. And where else would these “manfluencers” be getting their sudden and inexplicable fortunes from?
Unfortunately, a lot of young men and boys are vulnerable to that kind of influence. They lack positive role models, and social media funnels them into these sort of spaces with their algorithms. The problem is complex, and any potential solutions need to be complex to address it. But I think a few key things will include degrifting social media (and the fediverse is one way to make that happen), providing young people (of all genders) with positive role models and opportunities to receive mentorship (funding education is a good place to start, and also providing extracurricular activities in the civil sector where people can volunteer for causes they care about and legitimately feel they’re making a difference), and healing the rift between genders (which will be difficult because there’s a lot of bad blood, but cycles of hatred only self-perpetuate). Manfluencers would lose their audience if they couldn’t play off the grievance that so many disenchanted young men and boys feel they’re being left behind and no longer have a place in society. If those same men and boys had more healthy social interactions in gender-diverse settings, they’d be more likely to see women as people and not fall for the caricature of the “angry radfem.”
I’m not saying the impetus is entirely on women to forgive and forget, but there’s a lot of societal healing that needs to be done, and it will take a long time, maybe generations, but it can’t be done by only one side. Men certainly have a responsibility for detoxifying male-dominated spaces, but it can’t be only on men, because patriarchy and toxic masculinity are perpetuated by men and women alike.
For instance, how does a man address toxic masculinity and harmful patriarchal expectations imposed on men, if topics like “men’s liberation” are viewed as inherently redpilled incel fringe? There have been times when I’ve tried to call out patterns of toxic masculinity and the societal ways they’re enforced, but people are way to quick to pigeon hole everything into the closest-sounding trope, so then they call me a “nice guy” or an “incel” and other nasty names. Seems like a losing battle.
I mean, I often can’t even talk about problems that men commonly face without being skewered online by people assuming I’m just brainwashed by the manosphere and mindlessly repeating dogwhistles, instead of genuinely concerned about problems that I’ve faced and have noticed other men facing. If there’s no way to have a collaborative discussion about these problems, then it’s going to continue perpetuating this “us vs. them” mentality that drives so many impressionable young people into the extremes.
I understand it’s exhausting on your part to try to deal with, and believe me, I truly wish you didn’t have to put up with toxic men. If society is going to overcome this trend, men and women need to work together to do so. From my perspective, it really hurts to be lumped into a category with the jerks, especially when I can’t even say “not all men are like that” without being mocked. Or if I talk about “misandry,” people claim it doesn’t exist, it’s a made-up problem, it’s just a misogynistic dogwhistle, and they assume I mean it as “criticizing legitimately bad behavior from men” when I really mean it as “painting all men with the same brush, assuming all of them are as bad as the worst among them.”
I understand how easy it is to generalize, though. Sometimes I’ve found myself thinking about “women” as a general category, as if they all think the same way as the meanest man-hating redditor online (even the meanest are probably just carrying a lot of pain). It’s hard to remember that some feminists still actually follow the example of bell hooks, who didn’t hate men and viewed them as victims of patriarchy who required healing too.
We’re hard-wired to generalize. Schemas and heuristics are both well-known phenomena in different fields of psychology. It has evolutionary value, i.e. “Big orange cat = danger!” But evolution hasn’t exactly equipped us for modern life (our entire stress response system is optimized for wilderness survival situations, not deadlines and commitments), and purely evolutionary behaviors are often maladaptive in civilized society.
I agree that the lack of empathy is a key part of it. It’s a really tough situation, because universal empathy is not the default. Society had to evolve to the point where empathy between strangers was commonplace, and once it got there, it was still fragile and there were always people who were against in. Those people have been feeling emboldened by recent events, and what was left of the shared empathy was shattered. It takes a lot to heal that wound. Feuds don’t dissolve overnight. There’s a lot of pain and anger on all sides, some of it justifiable, and forgiveness and healing isn’t easy even when the preconditions of remorse and behavioral change are met. And that requires willingness from all sides. I really wish there was an easier and more straightforward path to reconciliation, but seeking simplistic solutions to complex problems is often how those problems get even worse and more complex.
And I appreciate your dating advice, but I’m past the point where I can use it. I’m too burnt out and disillusioned, I’ve been rejected enough for three lifetimes, and I don’t need to put myself through that pain anymore. It’s easier to keep my walls up than to let down my drawbridge and get hurt.
It’s not easy to get to know someone’s personality when their first thought when they see you is “potential predator.” Especially when I’m shy and awkward, I notice people tend to find my nervousness off-putting and they think I’m up to no good. I can’t keep up with witty banter in real time, and when I seem hesitant and people see my gears turning, they tend to think I’m being calculating and manipulative rather than scouring the blank surface of my mind for literally anything to say that won’t sound stupid.
What charred remains of my personality are left are bitter and cynical. Even if I expose my softest, most excitable core, people think I’m a spaz or a freak. If I unmask and infodump about my special interests, people tell me to stop mansplaining and other mean things like that. Okay, so I can’t talk about my passions, but I’m supposed to be open, vulnerable, and interesting? I’m supposed to be charming without seeming fake, when my natural authentic state is super-cringe-level-awkward? I don’t need to keep embarrassing myself by exposing myself to rejection. It’s taken me a long time to come to terms with the fact that I’ll probably never find love again. I’ve had it before, and I let it slip through my fingers because I was stupid, so I just tell myself this is my punishment for letting go of what I had.