That makes sense. The type of guys who aren’t like that don’t really approach women anymore, because the whole online discourse kinda indicates that women don’t want to be bothered and the guys who respect boundaries respond by leaving them alone.
It’s sad that so many men are misogynistic jerks. I’m sure they’ve always existed, but I think their prevalence nowadays has a lot to do with a combination of social media, right-wing grift, and kremlin psyop money. It’s been documented that there’s a lot of overlap between the manosphere, right-wing grifters, and russian-paid actors. Even Russia itself has publicly said that it’s waging a hybrid war to destroy the fabric of western society from within. And where else would these “manfluencers” be getting their sudden and inexplicable fortunes from?
Unfortunately, a lot of young men and boys are vulnerable to that kind of influence. They lack positive role models, and social media funnels them into these sort of spaces with their algorithms. The problem is complex, and any potential solutions need to be complex to address it. But I think a few key things will include degrifting social media (and the fediverse is one way to make that happen), providing young people (of all genders) with positive role models and opportunities to receive mentorship (funding education is a good place to start, and also providing extracurricular activities in the civil sector where people can volunteer for causes they care about and legitimately feel they’re making a difference), and healing the rift between genders (which will be difficult because there’s a lot of bad blood, but cycles of hatred only self-perpetuate). Manfluencers would lose their audience if they couldn’t play off the grievance that so many disenchanted young men and boys feel they’re being left behind and no longer have a place in society. If those same men and boys had more healthy social interactions in gender-diverse settings, they’d be more likely to see women as people and not fall for the caricature of the “angry radfem.”
I’m not saying the impetus is entirely on women to forgive and forget, but there’s a lot of societal healing that needs to be done, and it will take a long time, maybe generations, but it can’t be done by only one side. Men certainly have a responsibility for detoxifying male-dominated spaces, but it can’t be only on men, because patriarchy and toxic masculinity are perpetuated by men and women alike.
For instance, how does a man address toxic masculinity and harmful patriarchal expectations imposed on men, if topics like “men’s liberation” are viewed as inherently redpilled incel fringe? There have been times when I’ve tried to call out patterns of toxic masculinity and the societal ways they’re enforced, but people are way to quick to pigeon hole everything into the closest-sounding trope, so then they call me a “nice guy” or an “incel” and other nasty names. Seems like a losing battle.
I mean, I often can’t even talk about problems that men commonly face without being skewered online by people assuming I’m just brainwashed by the manosphere and mindlessly repeating dogwhistles, instead of genuinely concerned about problems that I’ve faced and have noticed other men facing. If there’s no way to have a collaborative discussion about these problems, then it’s going to continue perpetuating this “us vs. them” mentality that drives so many impressionable young people into the extremes.
I understand it’s exhausting on your part to try to deal with, and believe me, I truly wish you didn’t have to put up with toxic men. If society is going to overcome this trend, men and women need to work together to do so. From my perspective, it really hurts to be lumped into a category with the jerks, especially when I can’t even say “not all men are like that” without being mocked. Or if I talk about “misandry,” people claim it doesn’t exist, it’s a made-up problem, it’s just a misogynistic dogwhistle, and they assume I mean it as “criticizing legitimately bad behavior from men” when I really mean it as “painting all men with the same brush, assuming all of them are as bad as the worst among them.”
I understand how easy it is to generalize, though. Sometimes I’ve found myself thinking about “women” as a general category, as if they all think the same way as the meanest man-hating redditor online (even the meanest are probably just carrying a lot of pain). It’s hard to remember that some feminists still actually follow the example of bell hooks, who didn’t hate men and viewed them as victims of patriarchy who required healing too.
We’re hard-wired to generalize. Schemas and heuristics are both well-known phenomena in different fields of psychology. It has evolutionary value, i.e. “Big orange cat = danger!” But evolution hasn’t exactly equipped us for modern life (our entire stress response system is optimized for wilderness survival situations, not deadlines and commitments), and purely evolutionary behaviors are often maladaptive in civilized society.
I agree that the lack of empathy is a key part of it. It’s a really tough situation, because universal empathy is not the default. Society had to evolve to the point where empathy between strangers was commonplace, and once it got there, it was still fragile and there were always people who were against in. Those people have been feeling emboldened by recent events, and what was left of the shared empathy was shattered. It takes a lot to heal that wound. Feuds don’t dissolve overnight. There’s a lot of pain and anger on all sides, some of it justifiable, and forgiveness and healing isn’t easy even when the preconditions of remorse and behavioral change are met. And that requires willingness from all sides. I really wish there was an easier and more straightforward path to reconciliation, but seeking simplistic solutions to complex problems is often how those problems get even worse and more complex.
And I appreciate your dating advice, but I’m past the point where I can use it. I’m too burnt out and disillusioned, I’ve been rejected enough for three lifetimes, and I don’t need to put myself through that pain anymore. It’s easier to keep my walls up than to let down my drawbridge and get hurt.
It’s not easy to get to know someone’s personality when their first thought when they see you is “potential predator.” Especially when I’m shy and awkward, I notice people tend to find my nervousness off-putting and they think I’m up to no good. I can’t keep up with witty banter in real time, and when I seem hesitant and people see my gears turning, they tend to think I’m being calculating and manipulative rather than scouring the blank surface of my mind for literally anything to say that won’t sound stupid.
What charred remains of my personality are left are bitter and cynical. Even if I expose my softest, most excitable core, people think I’m a spaz or a freak. If I unmask and infodump about my special interests, people tell me to stop mansplaining and other mean things like that. Okay, so I can’t talk about my passions, but I’m supposed to be open, vulnerable, and interesting? I’m supposed to be charming without seeming fake, when my natural authentic state is super-cringe-level-awkward? I don’t need to keep embarrassing myself by exposing myself to rejection. It’s taken me a long time to come to terms with the fact that I’ll probably never find love again. I’ve had it before, and I let it slip through my fingers because I was stupid, so I just tell myself this is my punishment for letting go of what I had.
That makes sense. The type of guys who aren’t like that don’t really approach women anymore, because the whole online discourse kinda indicates that women don’t want to be bothered and the guys who respect boundaries respond by leaving them alone.
It’s sad that so many men are misogynistic jerks. I’m sure they’ve always existed, but I think their prevalence nowadays has a lot to do with a combination of social media, right-wing grift, and kremlin psyop money. It’s been documented that there’s a lot of overlap between the manosphere, right-wing grifters, and russian-paid actors. Even Russia itself has publicly said that it’s waging a hybrid war to destroy the fabric of western society from within. And where else would these “manfluencers” be getting their sudden and inexplicable fortunes from?
Unfortunately, a lot of young men and boys are vulnerable to that kind of influence. They lack positive role models, and social media funnels them into these sort of spaces with their algorithms. The problem is complex, and any potential solutions need to be complex to address it. But I think a few key things will include degrifting social media (and the fediverse is one way to make that happen), providing young people (of all genders) with positive role models and opportunities to receive mentorship (funding education is a good place to start, and also providing extracurricular activities in the civil sector where people can volunteer for causes they care about and legitimately feel they’re making a difference), and healing the rift between genders (which will be difficult because there’s a lot of bad blood, but cycles of hatred only self-perpetuate). Manfluencers would lose their audience if they couldn’t play off the grievance that so many disenchanted young men and boys feel they’re being left behind and no longer have a place in society. If those same men and boys had more healthy social interactions in gender-diverse settings, they’d be more likely to see women as people and not fall for the caricature of the “angry radfem.”
I’m not saying the impetus is entirely on women to forgive and forget, but there’s a lot of societal healing that needs to be done, and it will take a long time, maybe generations, but it can’t be done by only one side. Men certainly have a responsibility for detoxifying male-dominated spaces, but it can’t be only on men, because patriarchy and toxic masculinity are perpetuated by men and women alike.
For instance, how does a man address toxic masculinity and harmful patriarchal expectations imposed on men, if topics like “men’s liberation” are viewed as inherently redpilled incel fringe? There have been times when I’ve tried to call out patterns of toxic masculinity and the societal ways they’re enforced, but people are way to quick to pigeon hole everything into the closest-sounding trope, so then they call me a “nice guy” or an “incel” and other nasty names. Seems like a losing battle.
I mean, I often can’t even talk about problems that men commonly face without being skewered online by people assuming I’m just brainwashed by the manosphere and mindlessly repeating dogwhistles, instead of genuinely concerned about problems that I’ve faced and have noticed other men facing. If there’s no way to have a collaborative discussion about these problems, then it’s going to continue perpetuating this “us vs. them” mentality that drives so many impressionable young people into the extremes.
I understand it’s exhausting on your part to try to deal with, and believe me, I truly wish you didn’t have to put up with toxic men. If society is going to overcome this trend, men and women need to work together to do so. From my perspective, it really hurts to be lumped into a category with the jerks, especially when I can’t even say “not all men are like that” without being mocked. Or if I talk about “misandry,” people claim it doesn’t exist, it’s a made-up problem, it’s just a misogynistic dogwhistle, and they assume I mean it as “criticizing legitimately bad behavior from men” when I really mean it as “painting all men with the same brush, assuming all of them are as bad as the worst among them.”
I understand how easy it is to generalize, though. Sometimes I’ve found myself thinking about “women” as a general category, as if they all think the same way as the meanest man-hating redditor online (even the meanest are probably just carrying a lot of pain). It’s hard to remember that some feminists still actually follow the example of bell hooks, who didn’t hate men and viewed them as victims of patriarchy who required healing too.
We’re hard-wired to generalize. Schemas and heuristics are both well-known phenomena in different fields of psychology. It has evolutionary value, i.e. “Big orange cat = danger!” But evolution hasn’t exactly equipped us for modern life (our entire stress response system is optimized for wilderness survival situations, not deadlines and commitments), and purely evolutionary behaviors are often maladaptive in civilized society.
I agree that the lack of empathy is a key part of it. It’s a really tough situation, because universal empathy is not the default. Society had to evolve to the point where empathy between strangers was commonplace, and once it got there, it was still fragile and there were always people who were against in. Those people have been feeling emboldened by recent events, and what was left of the shared empathy was shattered. It takes a lot to heal that wound. Feuds don’t dissolve overnight. There’s a lot of pain and anger on all sides, some of it justifiable, and forgiveness and healing isn’t easy even when the preconditions of remorse and behavioral change are met. And that requires willingness from all sides. I really wish there was an easier and more straightforward path to reconciliation, but seeking simplistic solutions to complex problems is often how those problems get even worse and more complex.
And I appreciate your dating advice, but I’m past the point where I can use it. I’m too burnt out and disillusioned, I’ve been rejected enough for three lifetimes, and I don’t need to put myself through that pain anymore. It’s easier to keep my walls up than to let down my drawbridge and get hurt.
It’s not easy to get to know someone’s personality when their first thought when they see you is “potential predator.” Especially when I’m shy and awkward, I notice people tend to find my nervousness off-putting and they think I’m up to no good. I can’t keep up with witty banter in real time, and when I seem hesitant and people see my gears turning, they tend to think I’m being calculating and manipulative rather than scouring the blank surface of my mind for literally anything to say that won’t sound stupid.
What charred remains of my personality are left are bitter and cynical. Even if I expose my softest, most excitable core, people think I’m a spaz or a freak. If I unmask and infodump about my special interests, people tell me to stop mansplaining and other mean things like that. Okay, so I can’t talk about my passions, but I’m supposed to be open, vulnerable, and interesting? I’m supposed to be charming without seeming fake, when my natural authentic state is super-cringe-level-awkward? I don’t need to keep embarrassing myself by exposing myself to rejection. It’s taken me a long time to come to terms with the fact that I’ll probably never find love again. I’ve had it before, and I let it slip through my fingers because I was stupid, so I just tell myself this is my punishment for letting go of what I had.