that’s because even people who are using ubuntu for 15 years and don’t really care that much are finally fed up and starting to look for an alternative.
“get these security updates with ubuntu pro” is the ultimate wake-up call…
Ah yes, the 10-year corporate-grade security support for communiry packages provided for free to small users. I use it on the machines I haven’t converted to Debian yet. It’s great.
Not op, but I use Ubuntu because I will need a job at some point and want to use something relatively marketable.
Snaps are annoying, I tried to use them once for something and then have basically ignored them. They aren’t hugely core as something in windows would be.
In my opinion Snaps are superior in terms of design and functionality than Flatpak. In practice, there are many poorly implemented snap packages. There were annoying bugs with the snap system for a long time like the update/close app notification. There’s not enough features for holding snap updates. And there isn’t built-in support for multiple repos. I like Snap but there have been legitimate problems with it (along with a lot of illegitimate ones) and the mindshare has shifted to Flatpak, which albeit inferior, fulfils most of the Snap use cases. In the end the social infrastructure is more important than the exact technology and that’s much stronger around Flatpak. I use both on Ubuntu and only Flatpak on Debian.
If it matters, I’m a senior software guy who’s used Linux professionally for many use cases for 10-15 years. Been personally using Ubuntu since 2005. Am switching new machines to Debian because Canonical is planning to do IPO and enshittifaction would inevitably follow. Not because of Snap. 😅
I’ve been following Snap since it was called Click back in 2011-13 because it was solving a lot of problems that the classic, trusted package management had and still has. Problems that were elegantly solved on Android with the APK package and sandboxing system. That was pretty exciting so I might have a somewhat different perspective. :D
For me it wasn’t so much the universal part than the reduced maintenance work that comes with bundled depdnencies which makes a package work over more OS releases without breaking, as well as the higher upgrade success rate.
But yeah I like the trusted repo model that Debian uses. It’s a lot of work by many volunteers and the result is great, so long as people keep doing it.
You don’t need Ubuntu Pro to get updates on 22.04 LTS. Without it you’re getting the same type of updates 12.04 was getting, for the same period of 5 years. The main repo gets security patches from Cnonical, the community repos get patches from the community. Same as it’s always been. With Ubuntu Pro, you get additional security updates for the community repos done by Canonical, like they do it for main. In addition you get additional 5 years of support for 10 years total. And apparently there’s now yet additional 5 that extends it to 15 but I haven’t read what that’s about. So for a user that doesn’t care about Ubuntu Pro, nothing has changed. For the user that wants to stay on 22.04 till 2032, Ubuntu Pro is an incredible deal. This kind of support does not exist in Debian. It can be provided by a commercial third party for a price.
Kububtu (Ubuntu with KDE) has been an official Ubuntu flavour almost aince the beginning. During the Ubuntu consensus years, it was being promoted along with Ubuntu for every release.
It’s totally cool you learned about it from Valve but that doesn’t mean people were oblivious about KDE in the 2000s and 2010s.
Respectfully disagree. Have been following many Ubuntu releases over the years, Ubuntu blogs and news sites, and the official flavours have always been showcased, talked about, major features discussed and so on.
Also switching between flavours has always been trivial even post-installation. I used to test-drive KDE on Ubuntu installs and GNOME on Kubuntu installs in the 2000s and early 2010s.
Do you seriously expect new users to keep up with Ubuntu blogs, news sites and stuff like that? New users don’t even know what a flavor is. New users are not that involved in the eco system. Just because you have seen it that doesn’t mean it’s widely known.
This right here is one of the problems with old Linux users trying to recruit new users.
In 2012 when Ubuntu was the default choice, new users were instantly told what flavours are and what the three options were and why they should choose one over another. The info was also straight on Ubuntu.com where you downloaded the install media from. The problem you’re imagining did not exist.
E: Also I’m not trying to recruit new users therefore I’m not demonstrating my recruitment prowess. I’m having a discussion about the historical context of Ubuntu and Kubuntu/KDE. I’ve successfully converted many laymen users to Ubuntu who still use it to this day. I’ve converted whole teams to Ubuntu professionally over the years too. I know what it takes to do either.
Oh. In 2012 they didn’t have a simple direct download link to whatever the main one they were pushing at the time was, to reduce analysis paralysis for new users?
In 2012 they had no mention of Kubuntu or KDE on the official Ubuntu homepage and downloads page. Same for the Canonical website. I checked both in April and October of 2012 on the Wayback Machine.
In the 00s, it was a different thing. KDE3, now forked as Trinity, seems much more solid and easy. Would be cool if more distros pushed it instead of the heavier more-fiddly KDE since KDE3.
We had that consensus with Ubuntu for 15 years but haters had to hate so now we’re here. 😁
that’s because even people who are using ubuntu for 15 years and don’t really care that much are finally fed up and starting to look for an alternative.
“get these security updates with ubuntu pro” is the ultimate wake-up call…
Ah yes, the 10-year corporate-grade security support for communiry packages provided for free to small users. I use it on the machines I haven’t converted to Debian yet. It’s great.
You’re not wrong.
But, what about Snaps? What’s your take on these?
Not op, but I use Ubuntu because I will need a job at some point and want to use something relatively marketable.
Snaps are annoying, I tried to use them once for something and then have basically ignored them. They aren’t hugely core as something in windows would be.
In my opinion Snaps are superior in terms of design and functionality than Flatpak. In practice, there are many poorly implemented snap packages. There were annoying bugs with the snap system for a long time like the update/close app notification. There’s not enough features for holding snap updates. And there isn’t built-in support for multiple repos. I like Snap but there have been legitimate problems with it (along with a lot of illegitimate ones) and the mindshare has shifted to Flatpak, which albeit inferior, fulfils most of the Snap use cases. In the end the social infrastructure is more important than the exact technology and that’s much stronger around Flatpak. I use both on Ubuntu and only Flatpak on Debian.
If it matters, I’m a senior software guy who’s used Linux professionally for many use cases for 10-15 years. Been personally using Ubuntu since 2005. Am switching new machines to Debian because Canonical is planning to do IPO and enshittifaction would inevitably follow. Not because of Snap. 😅
You are now my enemy.
Snaps was one of the earlier enshittification indicators, and the point where I jumped ship.
I’ve been following Snap since it was called Click back in 2011-13 because it was solving a lot of problems that the classic, trusted package management had and still has. Problems that were elegantly solved on Android with the APK package and sandboxing system. That was pretty exciting so I might have a somewhat different perspective. :D
When I started with linux in late 2003, I soon came to wish for some universal packaging system.
I have grown to regret that wish.
For me it wasn’t so much the universal part than the reduced maintenance work that comes with bundled depdnencies which makes a package work over more OS releases without breaking, as well as the higher upgrade success rate.
But yeah I like the trusted repo model that Debian uses. It’s a lot of work by many volunteers and the result is great, so long as people keep doing it.
That’s interesting. I kind of feel the same way. Snap seem great and have improved a bit. But it lacks certain controls that Flatpak has.
It also covers more than just desktop apps, you can install a lot of other software in sandboxes.
i am on 22.04 lts, so should i really need ubuntu pro to get security updates and why is it forcing me to join?
You don’t need Ubuntu Pro to get updates on 22.04 LTS. Without it you’re getting the same type of updates 12.04 was getting, for the same period of 5 years. The main repo gets security patches from Cnonical, the community repos get patches from the community. Same as it’s always been. With Ubuntu Pro, you get additional security updates for the community repos done by Canonical, like they do it for main. In addition you get additional 5 years of support for 10 years total. And apparently there’s now yet additional 5 that extends it to 15 but I haven’t read what that’s about. So for a user that doesn’t care about Ubuntu Pro, nothing has changed. For the user that wants to stay on 22.04 till 2032, Ubuntu Pro is an incredible deal. This kind of support does not exist in Debian. It can be provided by a commercial third party for a price.
I am convinced that Ubuntu/GNOME is the main reason that Linux onboarding has taken so long and has been so slow.
I never knew KDE Plasma and other Windows-like desktop environments existed until Valve released the Steam Deck.
Kububtu (Ubuntu with KDE) has been an official Ubuntu flavour almost aince the beginning. During the Ubuntu consensus years, it was being promoted along with Ubuntu for every release.
It’s totally cool you learned about it from Valve but that doesn’t mean people were oblivious about KDE in the 2000s and 2010s.
Sure, but it hasn’t been well promoted by the community or by Canonical. Otherwise I would have seen it a long time ago.
Respectfully disagree. Have been following many Ubuntu releases over the years, Ubuntu blogs and news sites, and the official flavours have always been showcased, talked about, major features discussed and so on.
Also switching between flavours has always been trivial even post-installation. I used to test-drive KDE on Ubuntu installs and GNOME on Kubuntu installs in the 2000s and early 2010s.
Do you seriously expect new users to keep up with Ubuntu blogs, news sites and stuff like that? New users don’t even know what a flavor is. New users are not that involved in the eco system. Just because you have seen it that doesn’t mean it’s widely known.
This right here is one of the problems with old Linux users trying to recruit new users.
In 2012 when Ubuntu was the default choice, new users were instantly told what flavours are and what the three options were and why they should choose one over another. The info was also straight on Ubuntu.com where you downloaded the install media from. The problem you’re imagining did not exist.
E: Also I’m not trying to recruit new users therefore I’m not demonstrating my recruitment prowess. I’m having a discussion about the historical context of Ubuntu and Kubuntu/KDE. I’ve successfully converted many laymen users to Ubuntu who still use it to this day. I’ve converted whole teams to Ubuntu professionally over the years too. I know what it takes to do either.
Weird that I don’t see any mention of KDE or Kubuntu on the 2012 Ubuntu website then.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120427110552/https://ubuntu.com/
Oh. In 2012 they didn’t have a simple direct download link to whatever the main one they were pushing at the time was, to reduce analysis paralysis for new users?
In 2012 they had no mention of Kubuntu or KDE on the official Ubuntu homepage and downloads page. Same for the Canonical website. I checked both in April and October of 2012 on the Wayback Machine.
In the 00s, it was a different thing. KDE3, now forked as Trinity, seems much more solid and easy. Would be cool if more distros pushed it instead of the heavier more-fiddly KDE since KDE3.
Ubuntu basically used to be what Mint is now (although Gnome sucks). Mint shouldn’t need to exist.
I really love those haters who had to hate. ;D