If that was the intent, why were they given their own Soviet Socialist Republic and not just folded into the Russian one? Would-be conquerors don’t give statehood and political autonomy to the people they’re trying to erase and absorb.
Clearly this process was not successful. If the Soviets were not trying to directly control the land and people to slowly assimilate, why wasn’t Ukraine a satellite republic like Poland?
Then why leave Poland out of the union but not Ukraine. Unless you want direct control over the land and want to replace the people to consolidate that control.
The Polish People’s Republic wasn’t a member nation of the soviet union, but was a member of the Warsaw Pact. That’s like asking why Cuba was left out of the USSR. You’re deeply unserious.
Exactly, the Polish were given autonomy and control not given to Ukranians. If the Ukranians were not the target of a genocide but were still a member of the Warsaw Pact we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Ukrainians had control and autonomy as the Ukrainian SSR. They were not a target of genocide either, these claims are utterly unsourced and originate with the Nazis.
The soviets tried to preserve Ukrainian culture while establishing a common “soviet identity,” in line with being a multinational federation.
The Politburo was also kept in the dark about how bad the famine was getting:
From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.
Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.
The Political Bureau believes that shortage of seed grain in Ukraine is many times worse than what was described in comrade Kosior’s telegram; therefore, the Political Bureau recommends the Central Committee of the Communist party of Ukraine to take all measures within its reach to prevent the threat of failing to sow [field crops] in Ukraine.
Signed: Secretary of the Central Committee – J. STALIN
Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
There are also isolated cases of starvation, and even whole villages [starving]; however, this is only the result of bungling on the local level, deviations [from the party line], especially in regard of kolkhozes. All rumours about “famine” in Ukraine must be unconditionally rejected. The crucial help that was provided for Ukraine will give us the opportunity to eradicate all such outbreaks [of starvation].
Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Comrade Kosior!
You must read attached summaries. Judging by this information, it looks like the Soviet authority has ceased to exist in some areas of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. Can this be true? Is the situation invillages in Ukraine this bad? Where are the operatives of the OGPU [Joint Main Political Directorate], what are they doing?
Could you verify this information and inform the Central Committee of
the All-Union Communist party about taken measures.
Sincerely, J. Stalin
The origins of such a story of forced starvation came from the Nazi newspaper Völkischer Beobachter in 1933. Völkischer Beobachter reported on it as intentional, and then spread the story around further. We are not qustioning the legitimacy of the famine, but whether or not it was intentional, which all evidence post-opening of the soviet archives points to it not being intentional.
We are having this conversation because you believe Nazi propaganda, and distrust historical evidence.
If the Soviets didn’t give the Ukranians statehood and autonomy, it was to murder and replace them. But when in fact they did give them statehood and autonomy, is was somehow also to murder and replace them. You are operating on an unfalsifiable orthodoxy where if the Soviets did something, it had to be for nefarious purposes simply because the Soviets did it.
When did I state they gave them autonomy to murder and assimilate them? In this case the Soviets did do something for a nefarious reason, and them attempted to cover it up, and have now convinced you of their narrative.
This is something that you guys can never explain. I live in America, in the most concentrated hotbed of anticommunist propaganda the world has ever seen, and have never encountered so much as an old Soviet TV show. How the fuck did they “get” me? Countless billions of US government dollars and a century of red scare propaganda have gone towards trying to turn me into someone who froths at the mouth with rage upon hearing the word “socialism”. There are entire government initiatives, think tanks, and NGOs dedicated to spreading anticommunist propaganda throughout the world. What is the equivalent of that for a state that has not existed for longer than I’ve been alive? What does Occam’s Razor say about who is more likely to be the propagandized one in this situation?
The soviets did not force assimilation, nor erase Ukrainian culture, not force a famine. Ukraine was a soviet republic in the multinational USSR, with its own preserved culture. “Soviet” is not an ethnicity, but was a multinational identity. The origins of such a story of forced starvation came from the Nazi newspaper Völkischer Beobachter in 1933.
None of us are falling for propaganda here except for you.
If that was the intent, why were they given their own Soviet Socialist Republic and not just folded into the Russian one? Would-be conquerors don’t give statehood and political autonomy to the people they’re trying to erase and absorb.
Clearly this process was not successful. If the Soviets were not trying to directly control the land and people to slowly assimilate, why wasn’t Ukraine a satellite republic like Poland?
Because “soviet” isn’t a nationality, but a multinational federation of socialist republics.
Then why leave Poland out of the union but not Ukraine. Unless you want direct control over the land and want to replace the people to consolidate that control.
The Polish People’s Republic wasn’t a member nation of the soviet union, but was a member of the Warsaw Pact. That’s like asking why Cuba was left out of the USSR. You’re deeply unserious.
Exactly, the Polish were given autonomy and control not given to Ukranians. If the Ukranians were not the target of a genocide but were still a member of the Warsaw Pact we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Ukrainians had control and autonomy as the Ukrainian SSR. They were not a target of genocide either, these claims are utterly unsourced and originate with the Nazis.
The soviets tried to preserve Ukrainian culture while establishing a common “soviet identity,” in line with being a multinational federation.
The Politburo was also kept in the dark about how bad the famine was getting:
From: Archive of the President of the Russian Federation. Fond 3, Record Series 40, File 80, Page 58.
Excerpt from the protocol number of the meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist party (Bolsheviks) “Regarding Measures to Prevent Failure to Sow in Ukraine, March 16th, 1932.
Letter to Joseph Stalin from Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine regarding the course and the perspectives of the sowing campaign in Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
Letter from Joseph Stalin to Stanislaw Kosior, 1st secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, April 26th, 1932.
The origins of such a story of forced starvation came from the Nazi newspaper Völkischer Beobachter in 1933. Völkischer Beobachter reported on it as intentional, and then spread the story around further. We are not qustioning the legitimacy of the famine, but whether or not it was intentional, which all evidence post-opening of the soviet archives points to it not being intentional.
We are having this conversation because you believe Nazi propaganda, and distrust historical evidence.
If the Soviets didn’t give the Ukranians statehood and autonomy, it was to murder and replace them. But when in fact they did give them statehood and autonomy, is was somehow also to murder and replace them. You are operating on an unfalsifiable orthodoxy where if the Soviets did something, it had to be for nefarious purposes simply because the Soviets did it.
When did I state they gave them autonomy to murder and assimilate them? In this case the Soviets did do something for a nefarious reason, and them attempted to cover it up, and have now convinced you of their narrative.
This is something that you guys can never explain. I live in America, in the most concentrated hotbed of anticommunist propaganda the world has ever seen, and have never encountered so much as an old Soviet TV show. How the fuck did they “get” me? Countless billions of US government dollars and a century of red scare propaganda have gone towards trying to turn me into someone who froths at the mouth with rage upon hearing the word “socialism”. There are entire government initiatives, think tanks, and NGOs dedicated to spreading anticommunist propaganda throughout the world. What is the equivalent of that for a state that has not existed for longer than I’ve been alive? What does Occam’s Razor say about who is more likely to be the propagandized one in this situation?
The soviets did not force assimilation, nor erase Ukrainian culture, not force a famine. Ukraine was a soviet republic in the multinational USSR, with its own preserved culture. “Soviet” is not an ethnicity, but was a multinational identity. The origins of such a story of forced starvation came from the Nazi newspaper Völkischer Beobachter in 1933.
None of us are falling for propaganda here except for you.