Google is systematically dismantling the open Android ecosystem: forcing all developers to register with Google, slowing AOSP releases, and effectively turning Android into a walled garden. Here is what is at stake.
That’s basically what GrapheneOS is, and why I’m hopeful that Motorolla and other vendors start releasing devices using it. The main risk is that Google will cut off its services and store from it, and if there are official vendors making devices then it’ll be harder to do that.
From my understanding, Graphene is still extremely dependent on upstream development of Android so they can focus on their security improvements. I don’t think they have the manpower to properly fork it.
There is a solid basis though, and it wouldn’t be unthinkable to create a foundation around it that could take it forward on its own. And if there are vendors shipping it, then some money might get thrown at the effort too.
I unfortunately think you underestimate the workload here. Developing an OS is a massive undertaking, and it would require a huge community of developers to come forward and take up the job. I just don’t see it happening spontaneously. In my opinion, if they ever lose upstream support, Graphene just dies.
I’m not saying it would be easy or would happen spontaneously, just that it’s not impossible. There is already a solid base to work off and there is a lot of interest in having an open mobile platform. I reject the notion that only large corps can do such things.
And Android piggybacks on Linux. Turtles all the way down, until you get the actual developers committing real effort. And no one is talking about spontaneously, rather realistically 0.5-20 million euros in funding from the EU. Is it viable then? If not, realistically, what would be the threshold for viability?
Yeah, I’m waiting for the same thing, and even if they cut off their services, so long as the phone can be degoogled and replacements installed I wouldn’t really care.
Banking apps could be the only problem I foresee, but then I guess I’ll just go back to debit and credit cards.
Also, if someone releases a working Linux phone with some extra polish that has actual global distribution that would also be a good option for me.
I find the big one is communication platforms. A lot of people use stuff like Slack or Discord, and if you need to use these platforms you’re kinda screwed.
I’ve used the discord web client on graphene quite a lot. It has fewer features than the app but I feel better about it. Same with my bank- I can just log into the website via my phone’s browser.
For one, they’re not guaranteed to work all the time since these are closed protocols and the companies change them as they please. I’m not saying that workarounds aren’t possible, just that it’s not the same as having official clients if you actually need to use these apps reliably for work for example.
If your workplace requires proprietary slop apps and won’t offer you a phone and you’re doing your best to make it work on your phone, then it seems like their problem if it’s still an issue to them
it’s not the same as having official clients if you actually need to use these apps reliably for work for example.
The web versions are official clients though and they seem pretty reliable IMO
You do realize that most people don’t care about this sort of moralizing. A small niche of users will jump through hoops to avoid platform lock in, most will not. Shaming people for using popular tools achieves absolutely nothing.
At some point we’re going to want to ditch Google’s services entirely. This is simply a trust/societal problem, not an engineering one. Most proprietary apps rely on Google’s app attestation. The main hurdle I see for an Android fork becoming mainstream without Google is establishing a 3rd party root of trust, like how SSL already works. It is actively against Google’s interest to allow this to happen, so they will push as much closing of their OS as they can without “boiling the frog” so to speak.
That’s basically what GrapheneOS is, and why I’m hopeful that Motorolla and other vendors start releasing devices using it. The main risk is that Google will cut off its services and store from it, and if there are official vendors making devices then it’ll be harder to do that.
From my understanding, Graphene is still extremely dependent on upstream development of Android so they can focus on their security improvements. I don’t think they have the manpower to properly fork it.
There is a solid basis though, and it wouldn’t be unthinkable to create a foundation around it that could take it forward on its own. And if there are vendors shipping it, then some money might get thrown at the effort too.
I unfortunately think you underestimate the workload here. Developing an OS is a massive undertaking, and it would require a huge community of developers to come forward and take up the job. I just don’t see it happening spontaneously. In my opinion, if they ever lose upstream support, Graphene just dies.
What is an OS? is Android an OS or just an application layer? Because most of its deep close-to-metal components are not maintained by Google.
What is “developing”? is keeping things stable “developing”? I actually wish Google stopped releasing breaking changes…
IMHO, I actually think Android would be a better off if Google stopped experimenting with it, “developing” it, and adding stuff nobody asked for.
I’m not saying it would be easy or would happen spontaneously, just that it’s not impossible. There is already a solid base to work off and there is a lot of interest in having an open mobile platform. I reject the notion that only large corps can do such things.
And Android piggybacks on Linux. Turtles all the way down, until you get the actual developers committing real effort. And no one is talking about spontaneously, rather realistically 0.5-20 million euros in funding from the EU. Is it viable then? If not, realistically, what would be the threshold for viability?
Yeah, I’m waiting for the same thing, and even if they cut off their services, so long as the phone can be degoogled and replacements installed I wouldn’t really care.
Banking apps could be the only problem I foresee, but then I guess I’ll just go back to debit and credit cards.
Also, if someone releases a working Linux phone with some extra polish that has actual global distribution that would also be a good option for me.
I find the big one is communication platforms. A lot of people use stuff like Slack or Discord, and if you need to use these platforms you’re kinda screwed.
I’ve used the discord web client on graphene quite a lot. It has fewer features than the app but I feel better about it. Same with my bank- I can just log into the website via my phone’s browser.
It’s ok, but not quite the same as having actual apps unfortunately.
Why not use Revenge for Discord? Or on Linux Equibop and Slacky
For one, they’re not guaranteed to work all the time since these are closed protocols and the companies change them as they please. I’m not saying that workarounds aren’t possible, just that it’s not the same as having official clients if you actually need to use these apps reliably for work for example.
If your workplace requires proprietary slop apps and won’t offer you a phone and you’re doing your best to make it work on your phone, then it seems like their problem if it’s still an issue to them
The web versions are official clients though and they seem pretty reliable IMO
You do realize that most people don’t care about this sort of moralizing. A small niche of users will jump through hoops to avoid platform lock in, most will not. Shaming people for using popular tools achieves absolutely nothing.
At some point we’re going to want to ditch Google’s services entirely. This is simply a trust/societal problem, not an engineering one. Most proprietary apps rely on Google’s app attestation. The main hurdle I see for an Android fork becoming mainstream without Google is establishing a 3rd party root of trust, like how SSL already works. It is actively against Google’s interest to allow this to happen, so they will push as much closing of their OS as they can without “boiling the frog” so to speak.
True, Graphene would be a good start.
China don’t have Google PlayStore, but only their own apps market, also Amazon and Samsung have their own app stores.
It’s not impossible to have a different apps market, it there’s an user base, and developers will follow the market
Yeah, if there was an independent app store that popular apps would get published to that would be ideal.