Okay, so some good questions here that I’m glad to see on Lemmy.
So, objectification is one of those things I think men get more anxious about because they typically have less intuitive, lived experiences to understand where those boundaries ought to be assumed. Objectification is not itself inherently wrong; we are objectified when we have an assigned number for our driver’s license, and we often want to be sexually objectified by our partners, as you pointed out
People tend to be uncomfortable with the reality that the wrongness of objectification is something negotiated, not statically defined with clear lines that you could show in court. In one of my other comments, I said that this element is not necessarily an issue depending on the relationship. Yes, people have those discussions throughout a relationship (ideally), and if this was something established as appropriate, that isn’t much of an issue.
However, this is not two people in a relationship, this is an internet meme whose legibility is dependent on the assumptions and shared values of an audience. So, in that context, the fact that it is expected that so many of you wouldn’t take issue with this (and didn’t) is the problem. Women’s bodies are sexually objectified culturally, which means non-sexual contexts or attributes of their bodies are constructed as sexual, i.e. when men peep on their feet like they’re genetalia publicly, or when nakedness alone is considered sexual, despite that not being the case. Combined with the nuances of negotiated consent and the cultural norms of hetero relationships, that also means many (or most) cishet men do not even think about explicit consent when they’re met with a situation like what is depicted in this meme, like what you just admitted to.
Though this can often lead to harm – like being a bit rapey online and forcing women to see that most men don’t worry about their consent – that doesn’t mean that all men are bad because they were socialized a particular way, since it is something that can be resolved through communication and recognition. That most men, this site included, often react indignantly at the notion that they’re engaging in sexual violence even though they followed the rules, shows us that this is by no means a small issue. When I say “rape culture,” this refers to the prevalent cultural norms like this that, while not normalizing sexual assault explicitly, accept constructions of women, sex, and relationships that are conducive to devaluing women and their ability to give consent; therefore normalizing sexual violence.
So, yes, this is not inherently wrong in the context of an actual relationship with healthy boundaries, communication, and respect, but is harmful in the context of an internet meme that does not consider the possibility of harm in its messaging, and whose audience by and large holds such consideration in contempt as an indictment of their moral character.
One: the reality of our world is that we are in a patriarchy with cultural norms conducive to patriarchy, and the overwhelming majority of rapists are men, who also happen to be privileged within rape culture.
Two: Consent isn’t gendered, and you’ll note (if you can muster up the courage to read my comments) I do say very explicitly multiple times that this is also expected of women.
Three: if you’re going to dump the incel all over, put down a sign at the very least.
If only. Unfortunately, I am cursed with a social life and obligations, emails, and income taxes like all of the other poor rubes. If only I hated women more, I could have lived outside of this cruel society 😔
If you’re incapable of sitting down at a table and stating your real opinions without everyone going silent you’re not living in society buddy, you’re just hiding in plain sight
Look at your own comments here and compare them to the person who they were actually replying to. There’s a great conversation going on between two adults and if you pay attention you might actually learn something. You’ve sat down at the table and, instead of contributing anything of worth, said, “God tier trolling”. You’re barely half a step away from interjecting with the narwhal bacons at midnight and you think their opinion would cause the table to go silent?
Thanks for the rundown! I think I understand a little, at least about the lack of general cultural consideration of consent, but I’m not certain about what specifically pushes this meme over the line into problematic territory.
Would be be fair to say that the issue with this particular meme is that we shouldn’t assume they are in a relationship? I certainly believe it was implied, but it’s true that there’s nothing outright stating that he’s not looking at some unknown woman as she sleeps, which would certainly be rapey. Or is okay that we assume that they’re in a relationship, and the issue is that being aroused while looking at someone, even someone who accepts your attraction to them, is inherently objectifying, and while that can be acceptable, it should never be assumed to be acceptable without express consent being given in the presence of the observer?
Or is the issue here not with the meme itself, but the simple fact that not enough people outwardly asked the question of whether consent was present, even if after more consideration it likely would be? Like, I want to assume the best in people, and I know that even just questioning if someone might be evil can drastically impact the personal and public perception of them, so I don’t want to walk around assuming the worst of any given scenario, but I also don’t want to overstep into territory that’s going to make someone uncomfortable past the normal amount of discomfort everyone has to put up with that’s just inherent to interpersonal communication.
The more I think about it the more I think it’s just about keeping consent in mind, even if there’s no clear “right” answer, even for a specific given scenario, but it’s hard to make that into an actionable plan for change that isn’t just always being pessimistic about human nature. Like, even though I know it’s not meant to be, the act of asking for consent is essentially the act of asking if someone is doing something wrong. It’s fine when it’s between you and another person, but when it’s someone on the outside looking in, it’s hard to know when to ask, and when doing so is being too suspicious of someone who doesn’t deserve that. Maybe that’s wrong, though, and I’m hitting a wall of my own internalized misogyny… it’s tough.
You’re getting closer with the third paragraph there, and also yes it is important to recognize the nuances of consent negotiation like in your fourth paragraph.
The problem is the meme itself, because this content exists within this cultural context and carries meanings whether or not the creator intended it to. I used the word “read” multiple times to help soften those meanings by emphasizing how they’re fluid, but that doesn’t always work given the amount of men that are offended at this meaning being present. So, yes, the fact that you were all expected to not ask about consent is a problem, given that the meme does literally depict something that qualifies as sexual violence unless it happened in a healthy relationship. The assumption that, because these people are in a relationship, the perspective of one of those people sexualizing the other while they are unconscious indicates that they are in a healthy rather than problematic relationship is far more of a clear cut example of rape culture than what you and others appear to read from this meme.
That isn’t someone on the outside looking in, that’s something we all participate in as members of society. Yes, this behaviour will be appropriate in many relationships, but that it is expected to be appropriate despite there being zero evidence that it is is an example of how men do not even think about how this comes off as rapey, which points to the reality that many if not most men perpetrate sexual violence exactly because they are socialized to think this way.
You and many others take this to mean I’m saying that this guy is evil, which is probably why so many get pissed since it is something they definitely do, consent or otherwise, and consider it safely harmless (legally speaking); which it may very well be in their own relationship. Unfortunately, that is not reality. In reality, sexual violence is not perpetrated exclusively by evil men, but mostly by average men who do not intend to cause that harm. There are countless examples like not sufficiently considering sobriety and consent, not anticipating a boundary, thinking of consent as only explicit language that their partners are responsible to communicate rather than constant verbal/nonverbal communication that you are both responsible to be looking for, and not expected to always be communicated clearly. That is not essentially asking if someone is doing something wrong, that is recognizing our partners as human people who trust us to anticipate and read their feelings. If we look for those signs outside of our own relationships, we are recognizing the reality that it is not expected of men to think about consent beyond what might qualify definitively (legally speaking) as “rape.”
If so many of you don’t want to commit sexual violence, it’s better to learn and adopt a more nuanced understanding of how you have been socialized and how your actions effects others regardless of your intent. No, if you’ve done this before, you aren’t an irredeemable rapist, but you do become a worse person if you don’t address it now that you know it’s a problem. It is in fact more pessimistic to believe that men are not capable of that level of introspection and change, and that expecting them to do so is somehow a slight on them. Many men get mad at me every time I point these things now, but some learn as they should be trusted and expected to.
Oof, I appreciate the candidness. It’s true, I simply don’t fully understand everything you’re trying to convey at the moment, but I don’t doubt the validity of your argument.
I can at least say that I recognize that my current lack of understanding doesn’t mean I’m incapable of understanding; I’ll work on being more mindful about the questions I don’t immediately think to ask about things like this, and I’ll keep in mind that my interpretation of my own actions has some holes that I’ll need to fill before I can fully trust it.
Thanks again for taking the time to educate me - I know the internet has all the information in the world, but I still think the best way to learn about interpersonal stuff is to ask a real person.
Okay, so some good questions here that I’m glad to see on Lemmy.
So, objectification is one of those things I think men get more anxious about because they typically have less intuitive, lived experiences to understand where those boundaries ought to be assumed. Objectification is not itself inherently wrong; we are objectified when we have an assigned number for our driver’s license, and we often want to be sexually objectified by our partners, as you pointed out
People tend to be uncomfortable with the reality that the wrongness of objectification is something negotiated, not statically defined with clear lines that you could show in court. In one of my other comments, I said that this element is not necessarily an issue depending on the relationship. Yes, people have those discussions throughout a relationship (ideally), and if this was something established as appropriate, that isn’t much of an issue.
However, this is not two people in a relationship, this is an internet meme whose legibility is dependent on the assumptions and shared values of an audience. So, in that context, the fact that it is expected that so many of you wouldn’t take issue with this (and didn’t) is the problem. Women’s bodies are sexually objectified culturally, which means non-sexual contexts or attributes of their bodies are constructed as sexual, i.e. when men peep on their feet like they’re genetalia publicly, or when nakedness alone is considered sexual, despite that not being the case. Combined with the nuances of negotiated consent and the cultural norms of hetero relationships, that also means many (or most) cishet men do not even think about explicit consent when they’re met with a situation like what is depicted in this meme, like what you just admitted to.
Though this can often lead to harm – like being a bit rapey online and forcing women to see that most men don’t worry about their consent – that doesn’t mean that all men are bad because they were socialized a particular way, since it is something that can be resolved through communication and recognition. That most men, this site included, often react indignantly at the notion that they’re engaging in sexual violence even though they followed the rules, shows us that this is by no means a small issue. When I say “rape culture,” this refers to the prevalent cultural norms like this that, while not normalizing sexual assault explicitly, accept constructions of women, sex, and relationships that are conducive to devaluing women and their ability to give consent; therefore normalizing sexual violence.
So, yes, this is not inherently wrong in the context of an actual relationship with healthy boundaries, communication, and respect, but is harmful in the context of an internet meme that does not consider the possibility of harm in its messaging, and whose audience by and large holds such consideration in contempt as an indictment of their moral character.
God tier trolling
Done gooning to shellfish allergies, I see.
So if a woman said this about a man you’d say it was rape culture as well right?
You aren’t just sexist right?
One: the reality of our world is that we are in a patriarchy with cultural norms conducive to patriarchy, and the overwhelming majority of rapists are men, who also happen to be privileged within rape culture.
Two: Consent isn’t gendered, and you’ll note (if you can muster up the courage to read my comments) I do say very explicitly multiple times that this is also expected of women.
Three: if you’re going to dump the incel all over, put down a sign at the very least.
But this is exactly what being an incel is. Being knee-deep in woke conspiracy theories othering everyday normal and non-dysfunctional situations.
You’ve drunk the kool-aid. You’re few steps away from being functionally incapable of living in society.
If only. Unfortunately, I am cursed with a social life and obligations, emails, and income taxes like all of the other poor rubes. If only I hated women more, I could have lived outside of this cruel society 😔
If you’re incapable of sitting down at a table and stating your real opinions without everyone going silent you’re not living in society buddy, you’re just hiding in plain sight
Look at your own comments here and compare them to the person who they were actually replying to. There’s a great conversation going on between two adults and if you pay attention you might actually learn something. You’ve sat down at the table and, instead of contributing anything of worth, said, “God tier trolling”. You’re barely half a step away from interjecting with the narwhal bacons at midnight and you think their opinion would cause the table to go silent?
Oh good 😅 they just scream and cry.
Thanks for the rundown! I think I understand a little, at least about the lack of general cultural consideration of consent, but I’m not certain about what specifically pushes this meme over the line into problematic territory.
Would be be fair to say that the issue with this particular meme is that we shouldn’t assume they are in a relationship? I certainly believe it was implied, but it’s true that there’s nothing outright stating that he’s not looking at some unknown woman as she sleeps, which would certainly be rapey. Or is okay that we assume that they’re in a relationship, and the issue is that being aroused while looking at someone, even someone who accepts your attraction to them, is inherently objectifying, and while that can be acceptable, it should never be assumed to be acceptable without express consent being given in the presence of the observer?
Or is the issue here not with the meme itself, but the simple fact that not enough people outwardly asked the question of whether consent was present, even if after more consideration it likely would be? Like, I want to assume the best in people, and I know that even just questioning if someone might be evil can drastically impact the personal and public perception of them, so I don’t want to walk around assuming the worst of any given scenario, but I also don’t want to overstep into territory that’s going to make someone uncomfortable past the normal amount of discomfort everyone has to put up with that’s just inherent to interpersonal communication.
The more I think about it the more I think it’s just about keeping consent in mind, even if there’s no clear “right” answer, even for a specific given scenario, but it’s hard to make that into an actionable plan for change that isn’t just always being pessimistic about human nature. Like, even though I know it’s not meant to be, the act of asking for consent is essentially the act of asking if someone is doing something wrong. It’s fine when it’s between you and another person, but when it’s someone on the outside looking in, it’s hard to know when to ask, and when doing so is being too suspicious of someone who doesn’t deserve that. Maybe that’s wrong, though, and I’m hitting a wall of my own internalized misogyny… it’s tough.
You’re getting closer with the third paragraph there, and also yes it is important to recognize the nuances of consent negotiation like in your fourth paragraph.
The problem is the meme itself, because this content exists within this cultural context and carries meanings whether or not the creator intended it to. I used the word “read” multiple times to help soften those meanings by emphasizing how they’re fluid, but that doesn’t always work given the amount of men that are offended at this meaning being present. So, yes, the fact that you were all expected to not ask about consent is a problem, given that the meme does literally depict something that qualifies as sexual violence unless it happened in a healthy relationship. The assumption that, because these people are in a relationship, the perspective of one of those people sexualizing the other while they are unconscious indicates that they are in a healthy rather than problematic relationship is far more of a clear cut example of rape culture than what you and others appear to read from this meme.
That isn’t someone on the outside looking in, that’s something we all participate in as members of society. Yes, this behaviour will be appropriate in many relationships, but that it is expected to be appropriate despite there being zero evidence that it is is an example of how men do not even think about how this comes off as rapey, which points to the reality that many if not most men perpetrate sexual violence exactly because they are socialized to think this way.
You and many others take this to mean I’m saying that this guy is evil, which is probably why so many get pissed since it is something they definitely do, consent or otherwise, and consider it safely harmless (legally speaking); which it may very well be in their own relationship. Unfortunately, that is not reality. In reality, sexual violence is not perpetrated exclusively by evil men, but mostly by average men who do not intend to cause that harm. There are countless examples like not sufficiently considering sobriety and consent, not anticipating a boundary, thinking of consent as only explicit language that their partners are responsible to communicate rather than constant verbal/nonverbal communication that you are both responsible to be looking for, and not expected to always be communicated clearly. That is not essentially asking if someone is doing something wrong, that is recognizing our partners as human people who trust us to anticipate and read their feelings. If we look for those signs outside of our own relationships, we are recognizing the reality that it is not expected of men to think about consent beyond what might qualify definitively (legally speaking) as “rape.”
If so many of you don’t want to commit sexual violence, it’s better to learn and adopt a more nuanced understanding of how you have been socialized and how your actions effects others regardless of your intent. No, if you’ve done this before, you aren’t an irredeemable rapist, but you do become a worse person if you don’t address it now that you know it’s a problem. It is in fact more pessimistic to believe that men are not capable of that level of introspection and change, and that expecting them to do so is somehow a slight on them. Many men get mad at me every time I point these things now, but some learn as they should be trusted and expected to.
Oof, I appreciate the candidness. It’s true, I simply don’t fully understand everything you’re trying to convey at the moment, but I don’t doubt the validity of your argument.
I can at least say that I recognize that my current lack of understanding doesn’t mean I’m incapable of understanding; I’ll work on being more mindful about the questions I don’t immediately think to ask about things like this, and I’ll keep in mind that my interpretation of my own actions has some holes that I’ll need to fill before I can fully trust it.
Thanks again for taking the time to educate me - I know the internet has all the information in the world, but I still think the best way to learn about interpersonal stuff is to ask a real person.