Dewey you lil rascal, stop lookin at me like that!
It’s like owning a car for 20 years. Even if you don’t want to, you’ll eventually understand more and more.
Under the hood there is this thing in there called “systemd” that does a pretty good job making Linux work, and has made some people happy and some other people unhappy.
Before systemd there was something called “init” or maybe “system v” that wasn’t as good at systemd, especially not at restarting things if there was a problem, but it was real fast and less complicated.
This is not part of the Linux kernel though, i have no idea how that works.
Can i be dewey, but with the glasses?
Close—a few other people use a different unit system to be extra niche. There are tens of us! Tens!
I think most of the hate came from logging and that it went binary instead of just another file
Also I believe the whole “violates unix principles” thing. the one in question:
Make each program do one thing well. To do a new job, build afresh rather than complicate old programs by adding new “features”.
systemd just acquires more and more features. But then that was written in the 1970s. Things have changed, we have so much more going on in our computers, it’s easier to delegate a bunch of housekeeping work to a single, more centralized tool.
Using OpenRC or another init system instead means you get more fine grained control, but it also means you need to choose a bunch of utilities, whereas systemd just has a lot of them out of the box. And at the end of the day that’s just for power users to worry about, I suspect many end users will never be able to tell the difference between an OpenRC distro and a systemd distro given that both configure everything they need to use it.
Most of the hate came from people that don’t even read logs nor knowwhat they talk about. You can read journal with
stringsfrom binutils, you can forward to syslog server and store it in whatever format you prefer, you can do a lot of things with journal tbh. (Journalctl is horribly slow, that’s true)
What I tell people: “When you get used to using an operating system that respects your rights, you don’t wanna go back.”
I’ve been on Arch full time for 6 years, I still get frustrated, sometimes I get stumped, but I NEVER want to go back to windows
How about an operating system that respects your time?
Cause Linux aint that if I have to sift through dozens of badly documented online manuals just to get something small working the way it should.
Windows is much better in that regard.
So are you immediately trying to pull the conversation away from ethics, because you know Microsoft has no leg to stand on in this regard? Who cares that the founder of MS is heavily implicated in the Epstein files if you (supposedly) save a little time, right? Or I guess it doesn’t matter that that same company is actively providing surveillance tech support to Israel in their genocide of Palestine? That they censor their employees emails from speaking about the very atrocity they’re complicit in? Or that the same surveillance infrastructure is being used at home in service of an authoritarian regime?
That’s not even getting into all the gritty details of all the little annoyances and rights abuses - which have been accurately predicted by free software advocates for decades now - that inevitably stem from proprietary tech companies like Microslop, which collectively we are not calling enshittification.
But even ignoring the massive pile of shits about Microsoft and Windows to address your argument in a vacuum, does Windows respect your time? Really? Does Windows respect your time when it forces you to go online and sign up for an online account, and login to that account to enable their at-home spyware, just to install their operating system? Does it respect your time when you have to go through a potentially hours-long painful update procedure on a fresh install? How about when the OS runs awfully sluggish even on great hardware? Does MS respect your time when you have to go out of your way to research and install multiple tools and scripts to try in vain to gut all the spyware, AI garbage, adware, and bloat, and run 3rd party system tools to suppress other elements of the OS just to make the damn thing halfway usable and have the illusion of being something that can be trusted?
Even on your own little point, where is this superior documentation you speak of? Because every time I’ve run into a problem on Windows, their support pages have only ever given me the most generic troubleshooting answers that have been completely unhelpful. Please show me documentation that comes even close to the thoroughness and quality of the Arch Wiki.
Assuming any of what you said is even in good faith, and that you’re not just a shill or simp, here’s what you need to consider: Windows is something that most people have been using all their lives. When you’ve been operating something that long, it feels easier. You’re more able to ignore the pain points because habits are already deeply settled, and you know your way around. That’s the biggest reason Linux feels like such a hassle at first - learning new things takes time, and is always frustrating. I know this experientially because at one time I struggled to use Linux systems too, but now I have the reverse problem. I’ve been using Linux long enough, and Windows has devolved and changed enough, that on the rare occasion I try to use that piece of shitware, it is the most frustrating thing in the world. Windows 7 was something I was used to. But Windows 10 and 11 are new and unfamiliar to me, and consequently feel damn near unusably bad.
Does Linux have things it needs to improve? Of course, but at least it’s something worth improving. You’re trying to compare imperfect, yet a remarkable collection of software, to something that is literally just malware at this point. If anything, virus scanners should be adding Windows to their definitions lists.
Good for you, stay where you are
Lemme just fully quote the Arpaci-Dusseaus OSTEP real quick
The more you know about computers the more you realize its just magic rocks, and that magic, rocks.
its all transistors man all transistors
Me who started to use it few months ago: ¯\_( ´ _ `)_/¯
It’s more like the Sphere of Knowledge. The more you know about Linux (or pretty much any subject) that more you become aware of subjects you don’t understand. Whereas when you don’t know that much, there are fewer categories for which you are aware of your lack of understanding. Know unknowns vs unknown unknowns.
The Dunning Kruger-effect is a shaky concept. Recent studies seem to have disproved it in some ways.
It tends to explain why entry level programmers act the way they do. Like when I graduated I was definitely on the peak of mount stupid but as I learned more I realized how little I knew. I did not externalize this as I was just trying to make iy through my days, however I have seen some entry levels absolutely fuck things up because they thought they were geniuses. It was exactly like that bell curve where idiots and experts do the same simple thing but mediocre people do the most complicated thing possible with 5 layers of abstraction.
Just because it explains an experience, doesn’t mean it’s statistically true in a deep way. I would tend to agree that the Dunning Kruger effect is a nice logical story, a shorthand if you will. I would really be careful about placing undue confidence in neat little explanations of a stupefyingly complex word, especially when it concerns yet incomprehensible structures like the brain.
Being explained in experience is the worst proof, it’s all bias. I should have been more clear, I want it to be true because it makes sense, but it is incorrect.
The people who reference Dunning-Kruger often vastly overestimate how competent they are at statistics.
Plot with green points is Dunning Kruger data. It’s hardly correlated.
Using this plot as a statistical argument against the idea of Dunning Kruger is pretty Dunning Kruger.
It’s a scatter plot with hella dense overlap and no density indicator, and a best-fit line that doesn’t match the visual skew. Different ranges and scales on the axes are wonky as hell and make it hard to follow a 1:1 reference line. Try tracing a mental line from (75,75) to (150,150) and it looks much cleaner.
It seems to show subjective vs. evaluated IQ results, which mostly shows people generally think they’re far above average. There’s clearly a statistically significant positive correlation in the trend of modest magnitude.
More importantly though, it’s a bit of a weird thing to tie to Dunning Kruger: The plot tells us something about how well people can guess how “cognitively gifted” they are relative to peers, but that’s not a reasonable proxy for how people might self-evaluate on a skill-based or knowledge-based domain.
E: and I went looking for the source and that’s fake, simulated data you’re presenting as real there lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect#Statistical_and_better-than-average_effect
Two decades! Shit. Memes are meant to make me depressed.
Ironic typo?
Damn it. No
Everything’s a file.
except that thing. …and the other thing. that thing used to be a file but it’s not anymore. that’s only a file if you use this specific shell. that one is a file system, but there’s no files in it. oh don’t touch that file, that’s deprecated. oh that’s only a partial file, you need to open this one too otherwise it breaks.
Lots of things are files. See Plan9.
Linux: You’re a file.
Windows: No! You’re a file!
*Linux smiles maliciously*
As someone who uses Linux every day for work, I don’t know how to fix shit. I’m not paid to troubleshoot
I compiled Linux last week and I don’t even know how it works
I’ve installed Debian on a 16 year old iomega nas drive single board arm system. Special drive format, with blanking the first 32 bytes with zeros for a weird boot process. Installed OpenMediaVault on top of that.
I don’t know how any of it works, I just search the web and cobble stuff together.
First you get a file(kernel source), then use another file to change the file, then you have a kernel, but the kernel(file) in the the file system, then use a magic boot file to run the file. That’s basically it?
… And there are a lot more of those random guys around now.
Statistically yes, but also you’re noticing a lot more because Lemmy creates those guys. Source: random guy. (Although I’m actually the low end “who the fuck knows” on the IQ chart version of this meme.)
because Lemmy creates those guys
I confess, I’m perhaps complicit in that.
I think M$ has had a lot to do with it recently, although lemmy certainly offers a helping hand
Microsoft makes you want to leave, Lemmy tells you it’s not so bad and pushes you to do it.
I was unaware ifconfig was no longer a thing a little while back. boy oh boy did it take a long time to troubleshoot.
Say what? I used it last week to check on a secondary NIC. I am also extremely old… Almost as old as Linus.
it’s still present on a few distros but 10-15 years ago, some existing ip and new /iproute2 came along made better the interaction.
“It just works, so who tf cares?”
