For the sake of the argument, let’s say that was actually the case. This would still be a demonstrably better situation. Under private ownership of capital, the purpose of work is to produce profit for the business owners with any social value produced being strictly incidental. Meanwhile, with state owned enterprise the purpose of work is to produce socially valuable things that the workers themselves directly benefit from. The wealth is not hoarded by the state, but it’s rather reinvested in socially useful ways such as building infrastructure, providing healthcare, education, and so on.
Only if there are no checks and balances. The typical “communist” regimes like Russia and China can hardly be called communist by any definition. Just like nobody would call nazi’s socialist, despite it being in their name (national socialism).
Fucking “I take all and ya’ll better belive I’ll redistribute favorably or fucking die” is hardly even left. I especially hate when people say “in theory it makes sense, but in reality…”, no it fucking doesn’t even in theory!
The USSR and PRC were and are examples of Socialist states run along Marxian economics, such as public ownership and central planning. If you consider Marx to be a Capitalist, I fear you haven’t read him.
I just feel like creating a class of people with absolute control that mustn’t be questioned under threat of absolute annihilation is a spit in the face of the most core socialist let alone communist values.
They both have one body dictating what the people’s needs are that mustn’t under any circumstance be challenged. Making the whole “according to needs” part null and void. Both have histories of completely neglecting their citizens in favor of pursuing imperial ambitions.
Also not calling anybody capitalist. Saying it’s not really communism isn’t the same as saying it’s capitalism. So considering your comment I feel the need to also express that my second paragraph is in no way saying other countries haven’t done the same under other systems like capitalism. Just covering my ass, feeling the ugly head of pointless what aboutism approaching.
What you describe in your first paragraph isn’t what Marxists advocate for nor is it what AES states look like. You can read historical texts like Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan, or This Soviet World by Anna Louise Strong if you want to dig deeper, but overall government officials are an extension of class and not a separate class, and officials absolutely are accountable with mechanisms like Recall Elections.
More than the prior texts, though, contextualization is important, and Blackshirts and Reds does a great job of that.
Yes… I was saying the theory doesn’t match the situation on the ground. And the links you gave are all theory, which I at no point argued about.
The “separate class” I mentioned was also less of a theory reference, and more of a reality on the ground. Party members are treated differently. My grandpa was a party member back in the western block and had privileges regular folk didn’t. Like traveling around the globe and importing foreign “imperialist” goods seemingly at will. My mom stood out with his gifts, like wearing jeans.
Also you say they have accountability with stuff like recall elections, but I’d like to invite you to provide an example of this actually happening. Like genuinely, I can’t find any. All I find is officials being ousted by other officials, never by regular everyday people. As an example of completely dodging consequences, I’d mention that soviet countries and China both tried becoming leading grain exporters while their populations fucking starved, and people complaining were just labeled liars and thieves!
Which reminds me of a saying we used to have: “Kdo nekrade, okrádá rodinu” or “Who doesn’t steal, is stealing from their family”. A very different context from the one above, but it paints a pretty vivid picture, so I think it’s still worth sharing.
The three works I listed were history books, 2 written during the early Soviet Period and the third written shortly after the fall of the USSR. Theory is important, but so are history books, and in this case history books take priority because these are accounts of the ground. I am not sure where you get off believing them to be theory. You have your anecdotes, which can help guide your experiences, and I provided historical texts and analysis.
The first two books are theory with random anecdotes with the same citation count as my shit. If that constitutes history, than so does the Bible.
Tho I apologize for lumping then all together as the last book is actually somewhat more interesting (like actually having fucking citations). It rightfully outlines western propaganda, highlights what good happened in the USSR and what bad in the west. Tho if you actually read the thing, you’d notice IT’S JUST AS CIRTICAL OF THE SOVIET UNION! Read it your self! It mostly defends the USSR from western propaganda, but it doesn’t do the same mistake you did and just deny the structural issues. Sadly it doesn’t say much, as it is very much focused on critiquing the west (like the first 50%), so I kinda just dismissed it at first.
Also you completely skipped my request to provide a single example for your previous claim, sad.
The first two books are historical texts describing real atructures and events, your insistence on the contrary is meaningless. It’s pointless. Pat Sloan and Anna Lousie Strong are primary sources and you deny those, only trusting those who reference primary sources. It’s silly.
Further, Blackshirts is Critical, but realistically critical like I am, and not unrealistically critical like you are.
And no, I am not providing you with anything you want if you prove to double down on a false understanding of theory and history. You have proven jusy how little talking to you makes any difference if you continue to misrepresent myself.
States only act in a way to preserve themselves. If that means by helping the working class - so be it. If it means oppressing the working class - that’s ok too. As long as the structure and elites remain in place.
Which is why authoritarian state communism always degenerates into a kind of state capitalism where the owner class is the state instead of capitalists. In communism there is no owner class
This is nonsense, and ascribes a supernatural element to whatever it is you declare a “state” without analyzing its structures or mechanisms. As a consequence, you incorrectly pretend that Communism somehow would not have a government, when the point of Marxism is working towards full Public Ownership and Central Planning through developing the Public Forces. Government officials are an extension of the dominant class, with a fully public economy there no longer exists classes.
State “communism” means capitalism run by the state.
Communism has only ever meant full public ownership and central planning in Marxism. State communism is communism.
For the sake of the argument, let’s say that was actually the case. This would still be a demonstrably better situation. Under private ownership of capital, the purpose of work is to produce profit for the business owners with any social value produced being strictly incidental. Meanwhile, with state owned enterprise the purpose of work is to produce socially valuable things that the workers themselves directly benefit from. The wealth is not hoarded by the state, but it’s rather reinvested in socially useful ways such as building infrastructure, providing healthcare, education, and so on.
Only if there are no checks and balances. The typical “communist” regimes like Russia and China can hardly be called communist by any definition. Just like nobody would call nazi’s socialist, despite it being in their name (national socialism).
Fucking “I take all and ya’ll better belive I’ll redistribute favorably or fucking die” is hardly even left. I especially hate when people say “in theory it makes sense, but in reality…”, no it fucking doesn’t even in theory!
The USSR and PRC were and are examples of Socialist states run along Marxian economics, such as public ownership and central planning. If you consider Marx to be a Capitalist, I fear you haven’t read him.
I just feel like creating a class of people with absolute control that mustn’t be questioned under threat of absolute annihilation is a spit in the face of the most core socialist let alone communist values.
They both have one body dictating what the people’s needs are that mustn’t under any circumstance be challenged. Making the whole “according to needs” part null and void. Both have histories of completely neglecting their citizens in favor of pursuing imperial ambitions.
Also not calling anybody capitalist. Saying it’s not really communism isn’t the same as saying it’s capitalism. So considering your comment I feel the need to also express that my second paragraph is in no way saying other countries haven’t done the same under other systems like capitalism. Just covering my ass, feeling the ugly head of pointless what aboutism approaching.
What you describe in your first paragraph isn’t what Marxists advocate for nor is it what AES states look like. You can read historical texts like Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan, or This Soviet World by Anna Louise Strong if you want to dig deeper, but overall government officials are an extension of class and not a separate class, and officials absolutely are accountable with mechanisms like Recall Elections.
More than the prior texts, though, contextualization is important, and Blackshirts and Reds does a great job of that.
Yes… I was saying the theory doesn’t match the situation on the ground. And the links you gave are all theory, which I at no point argued about.
The “separate class” I mentioned was also less of a theory reference, and more of a reality on the ground. Party members are treated differently. My grandpa was a party member back in the western block and had privileges regular folk didn’t. Like traveling around the globe and importing foreign “imperialist” goods seemingly at will. My mom stood out with his gifts, like wearing jeans.
Also you say they have accountability with stuff like recall elections, but I’d like to invite you to provide an example of this actually happening. Like genuinely, I can’t find any. All I find is officials being ousted by other officials, never by regular everyday people. As an example of completely dodging consequences, I’d mention that soviet countries and China both tried becoming leading grain exporters while their populations fucking starved, and people complaining were just labeled liars and thieves!
Which reminds me of a saying we used to have: “Kdo nekrade, okrádá rodinu” or “Who doesn’t steal, is stealing from their family”. A very different context from the one above, but it paints a pretty vivid picture, so I think it’s still worth sharing.
The three works I listed were history books, 2 written during the early Soviet Period and the third written shortly after the fall of the USSR. Theory is important, but so are history books, and in this case history books take priority because these are accounts of the ground. I am not sure where you get off believing them to be theory. You have your anecdotes, which can help guide your experiences, and I provided historical texts and analysis.
The first two books are theory with random anecdotes with the same citation count as my shit. If that constitutes history, than so does the Bible.
Tho I apologize for lumping then all together as the last book is actually somewhat more interesting (like actually having fucking citations). It rightfully outlines western propaganda, highlights what good happened in the USSR and what bad in the west. Tho if you actually read the thing, you’d notice IT’S JUST AS CIRTICAL OF THE SOVIET UNION! Read it your self! It mostly defends the USSR from western propaganda, but it doesn’t do the same mistake you did and just deny the structural issues. Sadly it doesn’t say much, as it is very much focused on critiquing the west (like the first 50%), so I kinda just dismissed it at first.
Also you completely skipped my request to provide a single example for your previous claim, sad.
The first two books are historical texts describing real atructures and events, your insistence on the contrary is meaningless. It’s pointless. Pat Sloan and Anna Lousie Strong are primary sources and you deny those, only trusting those who reference primary sources. It’s silly.
Further, Blackshirts is Critical, but realistically critical like I am, and not unrealistically critical like you are.
And no, I am not providing you with anything you want if you prove to double down on a false understanding of theory and history. You have proven jusy how little talking to you makes any difference if you continue to misrepresent myself.
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There can be no checks and balances on a state.
States only act in a way to preserve themselves. If that means by helping the working class - so be it. If it means oppressing the working class - that’s ok too. As long as the structure and elites remain in place.
Which is why authoritarian state communism always degenerates into a kind of state capitalism where the owner class is the state instead of capitalists. In communism there is no owner class
This is nonsense, and ascribes a supernatural element to whatever it is you declare a “state” without analyzing its structures or mechanisms. As a consequence, you incorrectly pretend that Communism somehow would not have a government, when the point of Marxism is working towards full Public Ownership and Central Planning through developing the Public Forces. Government officials are an extension of the dominant class, with a fully public economy there no longer exists classes.