• Caves_of_steel@lemmy.world
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    5 hours ago

    I will never understand why left leaning people feel the need to defend a state which is essentially a heridetary monarchy disguised AS communist … ?

    • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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      5 hours ago

      I feel the need to “defend” every single state that has ever existed. Because I’m operating on a different paradigm than you.

      I care about whether claims made are true or false. “Defending” doesn’t enter into the equation for me. If you say Hitler was an evil space alien, I will push back on that, simply because it’s not true, with absolutely zero regard for whether by refuting misinformation, I’m “defending Hitler.”

      Liberals seem to operate differently. They see things in terms of good countries and bad countries (and people), and they see everything in those terms. So, if a claim is complete bullshit, but it makes a “bad country” look bad, then you should accept it, or at least let it stand. And if someone tries to refute misinformation about a “bad country,” the only way they can understand that behavior is if the person saying it thinks the “bad country” is actually “good.”

      To me, that’s just intellectual dishonesty. You don’t just make shit up about whoever you don’t like, and I don’t see how anyone who sees things that way could ever be trustworthy.

  • Skankhunt420@sh.itjust.works
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    8 hours ago

    To be fair its two different countries news sources (I noticed the BBC part wasn’t kept in real big at the top like the NYPost one was")

    This is clearly bullshit though he didn’t make them get his fucking haircut lol shit is wild.

  • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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    1 day ago

    The fact that there are multiple people in here believing both because “they were 3 years apart,” I don’t know whether that’s funny or sad.

    I know I said gullible was written on the ceiling but that was a second before you looked up, now it’s written on the floor. Nope, you missed it again, back to the ceiling.

    This is where you really gotta turn to that redsails article to explain how these people’s minds work:

    In short: Westerners aren’t helpless innocents whose minds are injected with atrocity propaganda, science fiction-style; they’re generally smug bourgeois proletarians who intelligently seek out as much racist propaganda as they can get their hands on. This is because it fundamentally makes them feel better about who they are and how they live. The psychic and material costs are rationally worth the benefits.

    Western propaganda is better understood in terms of “licensing”: the issuing of moral license for the bourgeois proletariat to profitably go along with bourgeois designs without the feeling of shame overwhelming. In this alternative account people aren’t “brainwashed” insofar as they don’t actually believe the lies, not in the way that we generally understand belief. It’s more correct to say that they go along with them

    “But you don’t understand, the news man said I have permission to use this to make fun of North Korea. Why are you spoilsports trying to take away my fun?”

    Critical thinking doesn’t enter into it at all.

    • Omgpwnies@lemmy.world
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      13 hours ago

      So what’s a “westerner” who thinks both sides are different flavours of bullshit? Also, what’s a “westerner”? Also also, “bourgeois proletariat”? How does a non capital owning worker who owns capital exist? Is that just propaganda against wage workers who happened to be born in a specific location?

      “But you don’t understand, the news man said I have permission to use this to make fun of North Korea. Why are you spoilsports trying to take away my fun?”

      Critical thinking doesn’t enter into it at all.

      All cool though when you use the same tactic to “other” people who don’t have the same “enlightened upbringing” as you though right?

      It’s not like you couldn’t have made a comment on the publicly known biases of the sources in question - NYP is a far-right (from a US American perspective) editorial-mill, and the BBC is at best center-left, while still toeing the McCarthy line against second-world states. Neither is a credible source on haircuts in North Korea.

      • shawn1122@sh.itjust.works
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        4 hours ago

        A Westerner is someone that lives in a previous colonial metropole, usually Western Europe, or one of their settler nation states.

        In other words, someone who does not live in the global south ie. those peoples victimized by colonial imperialism.

        Why refer to them as the bourgeoisie proletariat? It’s the first time I’m coming across the phrase but it makes sense. This 20% segment of humanity holds 80% of global wealth, to the great suffering of others. This 20% segment has historically contributed over 50% of cumulative carbon emissions, disproportionately contributing to climate change through relative excess, while looking down at those that have less than them.

        While not talking about any one person in particularly, surely anyone can see that describing this segment of humanity collectively as the bourgeoisie proletariat couldn’t be more fitting.

      • mathemachristian[he]@lemmy.ml
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        5 hours ago

        Now this is how you JAQ off, a real GOANer (going over all nitpicks) lol. Can’t attack the heart of the argument in the post linked so you resort to this shit

      • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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        12 hours ago

        I feel like all your objections are just about the terminology used in an article I didn’t write. I wouldn’t use the term “bourgeois proletariat” for example, but the actual point that the article is making is correct and insightful.

        It’s not like you couldn’t have made a comment on the publicly known biases of the sources in question

        Neither is a credible source on haircuts in North Korea.

        Yeah, no shit, that’s the point.

        There’s people in here blindly believing this propaganda even when it comes from such a biased and unreliable source as the NYP. That’s not because of a failure of critical thinking or because they’re just “stupid” or something, it’s because they simply choose not to engage in critical thinking at all. Because, as I said, they don’t actually care whether it’s true or not, they just enjoy getting a chance to shit on the DPRK to feel better about their own lives and their own system.

        You can’t convince people based off facts and evidence if they’re basing their beliefs off of things completely unrelated to facts and evidence. Tell them the NYP is unreliable and they’ll probably just attack you for “defending North Korea” or they’ll demand you prove a negative (and not bother to read if you actually put in the effort). They simply want to believe the propaganda.

        I don’t see why you’re so offended by this idea.

        • Omgpwnies@lemmy.world
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          9 hours ago

          You deferred to authority with your reference to a blog that defines classes of people as “westerners” and “proletariat bourgeoisie”. Those definitions are then used throughout the article as though they are commonly known entities, and even further entities that should be considered a lesser class. Regardless of the article you linked, the quotes that you selected use the terminology I am questioning.

          So I am asking to define what those classes are, and which people are bound to that definition? I own my house, but not my means of production; does that make me a “proletariat bourgeoisie” or just a modern peasant? What if someone owns a small business but rents an apartment?

          • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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            9 hours ago

            You deferred to authority with your reference to a blog

            Jesus Christ, any time I cite any sort of theory about anything people immediately jump down my throat with this “appeal to authority” bullshit.

            I referenced the blog not because it has any sort of “authority” but because it explains the concept quite well.

            I’m sorry that, apparently unlike you, I’m capable of respecting insight regardless of whether it’s written in the most proper, ideologically correct phrasing.

            So I am asking to define what those classes are, and which people are bound to that definition?

            No. Message the author if you want a definition. I already told you I wouldn’t use the term personally.

            The overall point is quite clear regardless of that terminology. And you haven’t said a single thing to contest that point, you’re just whining about phrasing for no apparent reason.

            • Omgpwnies@lemmy.world
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              8 hours ago

              No. Message the author if you want a definition

              No, I’m asking you for your definition. Who are you punching down on? If you don’t know, then you are assuming their definitions.

              • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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                7 hours ago

                What they mean is the proletariat of exploitative countries, those in the imperial core, who they see as having a distinct class character from the proletariat of exploited countries.

                Does that satisfy your pointless pedantry? Of course not. Now you’ll find another pointless detail to quibble over, or you’ll nitpick my definition. Because the point being made seems to have struck a nerve with you, but you can’t actually find anything to counter it so you focus on this nonsense.

                If the shoe fits, wear it. I’m guessing you know it’s true, at least on some level, and that’s why you’re doing this.

                • Omgpwnies@lemmy.world
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                  7 hours ago

                  Does that satisfy your pointless pedantry? Of course not.

                  Of course not, because you haven’t answered my question. What’s a Westerner? What’s a Bourgeoisie Proletariat?

    • Dirt_Possum [she/her, undecided]@hexbear.net
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      10 hours ago

      Just like the Iranian diaspora chuds who were cheering the mass murder of children in their “homeland” are also wholly unbiased, totally and completely free of any distortion, leaning, or parti pri, right?

      No, the people who bailed from their country are going to be the most biased. Not to mention there is an entire industry built around paying defectors to say bad things about the DPRK and that they even try to out-do one another on how extreme their stories are. See Yeonmi Park yeonmi-park While you’re at it, see: What’s the Deal with Defectors? or Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul

      edit: Some more from a Dessalines comment:

      • IAMgROOT@lemmy.wtf
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        6 hours ago

        the north korean citizens that are still there are under the threat of Prison or Execution if they mouth off to tourists or media

        and the tourists and media see what the DPRK wants them to see

      • IAMgROOT@lemmy.wtf
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        6 hours ago

        one lying defector doesnt mean they are all lying we also have videos and photos smuggled in and out of the backstreets of the DPRK give them a peep

        If the defectors are biased, there are no unbiased sources

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          2 hours ago

          Think about this for a moment: do you blame Cuba for its poverty, or the US Empire’s embargo? Do you believe everything mainstream news sources say about Cuba, or do you place a heavy deal of skepticism? The DPRK and Cuba are both quite similar situationally, with the former opting for heavy millitarization as deterrence and the latter opting for sending doctors as international aid. Both are socialist, both are under heavy embargoes, both have achieved quite a lot considering their circumatances. Both have strong ties with each other, and support liberation movements in Africa, Palestine, and more.

          A lot of what you think you know about the DPRK is just wrong. The problem with reporting on the DPRK is that information is extremely limited on what is actually going on there, at least in the English language (much can be read in Korean, Mandarin, Russian, and even Spanish). Most reports come from defectors, and said defectors are notoriously dubious in their accounts, something the WikiPedia page on Media Coverage of North Korea spells out quite clearly. These defectors are also held in confined cells for around 6 months before being released to the public in the ROK, in… unkind conditions, and pressured into divulging information. Additionally, defectors are paid for giving testemonials, and these testimonials are paid more the more severe they are. From the Wiki page:

          Felix Abt, a Swiss businessman who lived in the DPRK, argues that defectors are inherently biased. He says that 70 percent of defectors in South Korea are unemployed, and selling sensationalist stories is a way for them to make a living.

          Side note: there is a great documentary on the treatment of DPRK defectors titled Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul, which interviews DPRK defectors and laywers legally defending them, if you’re curious. I also recommend My Brothers and Sisters in the North, a documentary made by a journalist from the Republic of Korea that was stripped of her citizenship for making this documentary humanizing the people in the DPRK.

          Because of these issues, there is a long history of what we consider legitimate news sources of reporting and then walking back stories. Even the famous “120 dogs” execution ended up to have been a fabrication originating in a Chinese satirical column, reported entirely seriously and later walked back by some news outlets. The famous “unicorn lair” story ended up being a misunderstanding:

          In fact, the report is a propaganda piece likely geared at shoring up the rule of Kim Jong Eun, North Korea’s young and relatively new leader, said Sung-Yoon Lee, a professor of Korean studies at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. Most likely, North Koreans don’t take the report literally, Lee told LiveScience.

          “It’s more symbolic,” Lee said, adding, “My take is North Koreans don’t believe all of that, but they bring certain symbolic value to celebrating your own identify, maybe even notions of cultural exceptionalism and superiority. It boosts morale.”

          These aren’t tabloids, these are mainstream news sources. NBC News reported the 120 dogs story. Same with USA Today. The frequently reported concept of “state-mandated haircut styles”, as an example, also ended up being bogus sensationalism. People have made entire videos going over this long-running sensationalist misinformation, why it exists, and debunking some of the more absurd articles. As for Radio Free Asia, it is US-government founded and funded. There is good reason to be skeptical of reports sourced entirely from RFA about geopolitical enemies of the US Empire.

          Sadly, some people end up using outlandish media stories as an “acceptable outlet” for racism. By accepting uncritically narratives about “barbaric Koreans” pushing trains, eating rats, etc, it serves as a “get out of jail free” card for racists to freely agree with narratives devoid of real evidence.

          It’s important to recognize that a large part of why the DPRK appears to be insular is because of UN-imposed sanctions, helmed by the US Empire. It is difficult to get accurate information on the DPRK, but not impossible; Russia, China, and Cuba all have frequent interactions and student exchanges, trade such as in the Rason special economic zone, etc, and there are videos released onto the broader internet from this.

          In fact, many citizens who flee the DPRK actually seek to return, and are denied by the ROK. Even BBC is reporting on a high-profile case where a 95 year old veteran wishes to be buried in his homeland, sparking protests by pro-reunification activists in the ROK to help him go home in his final years.

          Finally, it’s more unlikely than ever that the DPRK will collapse. The economy was estimated by the Bank of Korea (an ROK bank) to have grown by 3.7% in 2024, thanks to increased trade with Russia. The harshest period for the DPRK, the Arduous March, was in the 90s, and the government did not collapse then. That was the era of mass statvation thanks to the dissolution of the USSR and horrible weather disaster that made the already difficult agricultural climate of northern Korea even worse. Nowadays food is far more stable and the economy is growing, collapse is highly unlikely.

          What I think is more likely is that these trends will continue. As the US Empire’s influence wanes, the DPRK will increase trade and interaction with the world, increasing accurate information and helping grow their economy, perhaps even enabling some form of reunification with the ROK. The US Empire leaving the peninsula is the number 1 most important task for reunification, so this is increasingly likely as the US Empire becomes untenable.

          Nodutdol, an anti-imperialist group of Korean expats, released a toolkit on better understanding the situation in Korea. This is more like homework, though. I also recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance for learning about the DPRK’s democratic structure.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          2 hours ago

          Think about this for a moment: do you blame Cuba for its poverty, or the US Empire’s embargo? Do you believe everything mainstream news sources say about Cuba, or do you place a heavy deal of skepticism? The DPRK and Cuba are both quite similar situationally, with the former opting for heavy millitarization as deterrence and the latter opting for sending doctors as international aid. Both are socialist, both are under heavy embargoes, both have achieved quite a lot considering their circumatances. Both have strong ties with each other, and support liberation movements in Africa, Palestine, and more.

          A lot of what you think you know about the DPRK is just wrong. The problem with reporting on the DPRK is that information is extremely limited on what is actually going on there, at least in the English language (much can be read in Korean, Mandarin, Russian, and even Spanish). Most reports come from defectors, and said defectors are notoriously dubious in their accounts, something the WikiPedia page on Media Coverage of North Korea spells out quite clearly. These defectors are also held in confined cells for around 6 months before being released to the public in the ROK, in… unkind conditions, and pressured into divulging information. Additionally, defectors are paid for giving testemonials, and these testimonials are paid more the more severe they are. From the Wiki page:

          Felix Abt, a Swiss businessman who lived in the DPRK, argues that defectors are inherently biased. He says that 70 percent of defectors in South Korea are unemployed, and selling sensationalist stories is a way for them to make a living.

          Side note: there is a great documentary on the treatment of DPRK defectors titled Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul, which interviews DPRK defectors and laywers legally defending them, if you’re curious. I also recommend My Brothers and Sisters in the North, a documentary made by a journalist from the Republic of Korea that was stripped of her citizenship for making this documentary humanizing the people in the DPRK.

          Because of these issues, there is a long history of what we consider legitimate news sources of reporting and then walking back stories. Even the famous “120 dogs” execution ended up to have been a fabrication originating in a Chinese satirical column, reported entirely seriously and later walked back by some news outlets. The famous “unicorn lair” story ended up being a misunderstanding:

          In fact, the report is a propaganda piece likely geared at shoring up the rule of Kim Jong Eun, North Korea’s young and relatively new leader, said Sung-Yoon Lee, a professor of Korean studies at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. Most likely, North Koreans don’t take the report literally, Lee told LiveScience.

          “It’s more symbolic,” Lee said, adding, “My take is North Koreans don’t believe all of that, but they bring certain symbolic value to celebrating your own identify, maybe even notions of cultural exceptionalism and superiority. It boosts morale.”

          These aren’t tabloids, these are mainstream news sources. NBC News reported the 120 dogs story. Same with USA Today. The frequently reported concept of “state-mandated haircut styles”, as an example, also ended up being bogus sensationalism. People have made entire videos going over this long-running sensationalist misinformation, why it exists, and debunking some of the more absurd articles. As for Radio Free Asia, it is US-government founded and funded. There is good reason to be skeptical of reports sourced entirely from RFA about geopolitical enemies of the US Empire.

          Sadly, some people end up using outlandish media stories as an “acceptable outlet” for racism. By accepting uncritically narratives about “barbaric Koreans” pushing trains, eating rats, etc, it serves as a “get out of jail free” card for racists to freely agree with narratives devoid of real evidence.

          It’s important to recognize that a large part of why the DPRK appears to be insular is because of UN-imposed sanctions, helmed by the US Empire. It is difficult to get accurate information on the DPRK, but not impossible; Russia, China, and Cuba all have frequent interactions and student exchanges, trade such as in the Rason special economic zone, etc, and there are videos released onto the broader internet from this.

          In fact, many citizens who flee the DPRK actually seek to return, and are denied by the ROK. Even BBC is reporting on a high-profile case where a 95 year old veteran wishes to be buried in his homeland, sparking protests by pro-reunification activists in the ROK to help him go home in his final years.

          Finally, it’s more unlikely than ever that the DPRK will collapse. The economy was estimated by the Bank of Korea (an ROK bank) to have grown by 3.7% in 2024, thanks to increased trade with Russia. The harshest period for the DPRK, the Arduous March, was in the 90s, and the government did not collapse then. That was the era of mass statvation thanks to the dissolution of the USSR and horrible weather disaster that made the already difficult agricultural climate of northern Korea even worse. Nowadays food is far more stable and the economy is growing, collapse is highly unlikely.

          What I think is more likely is that these trends will continue. As the US Empire’s influence wanes, the DPRK will increase trade and interaction with the world, increasing accurate information and helping grow their economy, perhaps even enabling some form of reunification with the ROK. The US Empire leaving the peninsula is the number 1 most important task for reunification, so this is increasingly likely as the US Empire becomes untenable.

          Nodutdol, an anti-imperialist group of Korean expats, released a toolkit on better understanding the situation in Korea. This is more like homework, though. I also recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance for learning about the DPRK’s democratic structure.

  • JennaR8r@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    2 days ago

    They were required to get that haircut, then 3 years later they were forbidden from getting that haircut?

    • 1Malayali@lemmy.mlOP
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      1 day ago

      ^Meant to the get the idea of exaggeration and misinformation across. Tho, I do not lie here^

      Are the ‘frozen water’ officers making you type this?
      Are you safe?

      I have heard that the USAmerican regime has become even more extreme and has started public executions of people who are ‘white’ and ‘male’, the people who the regime says that they stand for. Your regime mainly used to bomb brown people, to keep your support.

      Now copypasting from a previous reply:

      The meme is on potential misinformation from SK along with sensationalization.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_coverage_of_North_Korea#Political_bias

      I recently learnt about the Korean war and how the USAmerican govt killed approx 20% of NK population, Unit 731 bioweapons and even threatened to nuke NK and China.

      Also, about the SK National Security Act which bans positive news coverage on SK, as they are technically still in conflict.

    • CommieKhinkali@lemmygrad.ml
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      2 days ago

      Do you believe either article? Do you think dprk is some “evil” country and its working class act on rat human eating life cycle like yonmi park has said? Do you also believe that the trains aee being pushed by people everyday instead of it being run normally? Im genuinely curious to know if you believe any of that and im curios why are you defending capitalists when you arent one

    • orc girly@lemmy.ml
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      2 days ago

      Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, neither of those articles had such a thing