I think you fail to notice that i also consider the vast majority of “liberal democracies” to be decaying into fascism already. Your insinuations of my intentions are frivolous.
Just to make sure: you do realise that criticism of Russia does not equate to praise for Western democracies?
“I think you fail to notice that i also consider the vast majority of “liberal democracies” to be decaying into fascism already. Your insinuations of my intentions are frivolous.”
I do recognise that, a very rare occurence in the sea of Russophobic warmongering where there o so democratic neighbours can do no wrong despite being awful.
And I want to make sure I don’t like Putin and his policies.
I do support the lesser evil and the enemy of my enemy.
There has been done enough to almost risk WW3 where Europe mainly suffers and the intigators, the US as usual profits.
This bcs people don’t know the facts and fail to see western media is just as controlled and propagandised.
I’m willing to admit that much or even all I’ve heard about Russia is purely propaganda - but the alternative seems to be taking Russia at its word, and that would mean swallowing their own propaganda. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle, but where that is is hard to say.
To be clear, I don’t think the “Russia invaded poor peaceful Ukraine for fun” narrative is accurate. However, I don’t see any convincing alternatives to that. The “denazification” idea coming from Russia seems flimsy at best. There does certainly seem to be a large Nazi presence in Ukraine. But, unless they seem to be ramping up towards a pseudo fourth reich, that doesn’t seem to me to be a justification for a full-on invasion. Sanctions? Blockading? Defensive alliances with the rest of Europe? Those would seem reasonable.
But, yeah, there’s obviously a gap in my knowledge regarding this. I’m just not convinced yet that the gap contains justified excuses for Russia’s actions.
You sound like a reasonable person and don’t resort to insults like most other ones disagreing with we.
I usually quit when they call me a nazi or the opposite, a tankie.
You seem willing to listen and learn.
There is a very strong nazi presence in ukraine, not just the AZOV’s.
An estimated 30% and they have a great influence.
The reason Russia invaded was bcs they had no other choice, it was an existential threat.
There was a textbook paid and organised western coup, not a revolution.
The parts of ukraine (40%) with ethnic Russians didn’t want to live under their rule and be discriminated or even ethnic cleansed.
They resisted.
The east succeeded bcs close to Russia and they got weapons while in the south protests got brutally beaten down, culminating in the deliberate burning of the union building killing 47 people by the armed fascist thugs who were sent there from Lviv.
Russia didn’t have many demands before, mostly that they not be in NATO and rights for the ethnic Russians.
Letting the Banderite government (chosen by the US as proven by the Nuland-Pyatt call) take all Ukraine would simply be indefensible since nukes in ukraine would be right next to Moscow.
Don’t forget that just before the US unilaterally broke the missile treaties and put them in Romania. They are always threatening them, always have.
There have been plenty of warning from Russia, red lines are just that. NATO can not expand further than that. Yet NATO kept pushing.
Another reason was the fascists were going to finally launch their ethnic cleansing offensive.
They admittedly broke the Minsk accords (even Merkel said it was just to buy time), eventually had the largest army in Europe with western help and even by the reports of the OCSE they massively (98%) violated the ceasefire with the eastern Donetsk/Lugansk resitance.
So Russia intervened.
For all I’m saying there is proof to back it up.
Even from western sources.
I hope you look it up.
You’ve given me a hell of a lot to think about, dude. I heard someone say recently, “why would the same media that lies about Gaza tell the truth about Ukraine?” And the seed had been planted. But, like I said earlier, I hadn’t seen any contrary opinions other than obvious bloodthirsty fascists who just have no sympathy for Ukraine’s citizens and like the idea of massive conflict.
If the picture you paint is true - that the West had essentially been building a military presence in Eastern Europe to deliberately threaten Russia, and that Eastern Ukraine genuinely considered themselves part of Russia - then I find it had to argue with what happened.
But, i have to admit, something is making it hard for me to truly accept. Somehow it’s harder to accept than accepting the truth that Israel is genociding Palestinians.
I’ll have to do some thinking and research. Thanks for putting up with me.
Never forget, nothing is a threat to moscovite russia, they have the largest nuclear arsenal, largest amount of land in the world to shelter during a nuclear attack. Measure the border of russia vs the border with NATO members before russia invaded Ukraine. Russia did nothing when Finland Sweden joined NATO.
Unlike russia, other countries have genuine security concerns about russia expansionism and nukes.
Don’t forget to research which country russian puppet, Viktor Yanukovych.
Don’t forget to research on all the coup russia tried to carry out inside Ukraine.
Don’t forget to research about putin’s Wagner group.
Thanks for the civil conversation, this gives me hope.
Nice that some people have an open mind and are willing to be sceptical, look up sources and learn without blindly accepting what their side tells them.
Here’s some background:
The Ukraine fascist problem goes back all the way to WW2.
Even before it was finished US/UK started to save nazis to use them later against the Soviets.
After it was clear they would win the war after the battle of Stalingrad 1943.
This has been largely swept under the carpet.
Most of them in the west got rehabilitated and even kept in important positions. Not in the least in NATO.
And are we the good guys when we had no trouble accepting fully fascist regimes in NATO?
Spain, Portugal, Greece and more.
Everyone more or less knows about Project Paperclip to use nazi scientist.
Which is despicable but in some way understandable.
But it goes much further than that.
Here is a good read on the ratlines that were established.
And why would they save thousands of the worst Ukrainian SS Galicia troops and evacuate them to England and later Canada? The results and the ideology of their offspring is still strong.
Also check out the rest of that sub, it will surely debunk the ‘no nazis in Ukraine’ mantra. Declassified document showing CIA supporting post war fascists in Ukraine.
I think you fail to notice that i also consider the vast majority of “liberal democracies” to be decaying into fascism already. Your insinuations of my intentions are frivolous.
Just to make sure: you do realise that criticism of Russia does not equate to praise for Western democracies?
“I think you fail to notice that i also consider the vast majority of “liberal democracies” to be decaying into fascism already. Your insinuations of my intentions are frivolous.”
I do recognise that, a very rare occurence in the sea of Russophobic warmongering where there o so democratic neighbours can do no wrong despite being awful.
And I want to make sure I don’t like Putin and his policies.
I do support the lesser evil and the enemy of my enemy.
There has been done enough to almost risk WW3 where Europe mainly suffers and the intigators, the US as usual profits.
This bcs people don’t know the facts and fail to see western media is just as controlled and propagandised.
I’m willing to admit that much or even all I’ve heard about Russia is purely propaganda - but the alternative seems to be taking Russia at its word, and that would mean swallowing their own propaganda. The truth must lie somewhere in the middle, but where that is is hard to say.
To be clear, I don’t think the “Russia invaded poor peaceful Ukraine for fun” narrative is accurate. However, I don’t see any convincing alternatives to that. The “denazification” idea coming from Russia seems flimsy at best. There does certainly seem to be a large Nazi presence in Ukraine. But, unless they seem to be ramping up towards a pseudo fourth reich, that doesn’t seem to me to be a justification for a full-on invasion. Sanctions? Blockading? Defensive alliances with the rest of Europe? Those would seem reasonable.
But, yeah, there’s obviously a gap in my knowledge regarding this. I’m just not convinced yet that the gap contains justified excuses for Russia’s actions.
You sound like a reasonable person and don’t resort to insults like most other ones disagreing with we.
I usually quit when they call me a nazi or the opposite, a tankie.
You seem willing to listen and learn.
There is a very strong nazi presence in ukraine, not just the AZOV’s.
An estimated 30% and they have a great influence.
The reason Russia invaded was bcs they had no other choice, it was an existential threat.
There was a textbook paid and organised western coup, not a revolution.
The parts of ukraine (40%) with ethnic Russians didn’t want to live under their rule and be discriminated or even ethnic cleansed.
They resisted.
The east succeeded bcs close to Russia and they got weapons while in the south protests got brutally beaten down, culminating in the deliberate burning of the union building killing 47 people by the armed fascist thugs who were sent there from Lviv.
Russia didn’t have many demands before, mostly that they not be in NATO and rights for the ethnic Russians.
Letting the Banderite government (chosen by the US as proven by the Nuland-Pyatt call) take all Ukraine would simply be indefensible since nukes in ukraine would be right next to Moscow.
Don’t forget that just before the US unilaterally broke the missile treaties and put them in Romania. They are always threatening them, always have.
There have been plenty of warning from Russia, red lines are just that. NATO can not expand further than that. Yet NATO kept pushing.
Another reason was the fascists were going to finally launch their ethnic cleansing offensive.
They admittedly broke the Minsk accords (even Merkel said it was just to buy time), eventually had the largest army in Europe with western help and even by the reports of the OCSE they massively (98%) violated the ceasefire with the eastern Donetsk/Lugansk resitance.
So Russia intervened.
For all I’m saying there is proof to back it up.
Even from western sources.
I hope you look it up.
You’ve given me a hell of a lot to think about, dude. I heard someone say recently, “why would the same media that lies about Gaza tell the truth about Ukraine?” And the seed had been planted. But, like I said earlier, I hadn’t seen any contrary opinions other than obvious bloodthirsty fascists who just have no sympathy for Ukraine’s citizens and like the idea of massive conflict.
If the picture you paint is true - that the West had essentially been building a military presence in Eastern Europe to deliberately threaten Russia, and that Eastern Ukraine genuinely considered themselves part of Russia - then I find it had to argue with what happened.
But, i have to admit, something is making it hard for me to truly accept. Somehow it’s harder to accept than accepting the truth that Israel is genociding Palestinians.
I’ll have to do some thinking and research. Thanks for putting up with me.
Never forget, nothing is a threat to moscovite russia, they have the largest nuclear arsenal, largest amount of land in the world to shelter during a nuclear attack. Measure the border of russia vs the border with NATO members before russia invaded Ukraine. Russia did nothing when Finland Sweden joined NATO.
Unlike russia, other countries have genuine security concerns about russia expansionism and nukes.
Don’t forget to research which country russian puppet, Viktor Yanukovych.
Don’t forget to research on all the coup russia tried to carry out inside Ukraine.
Don’t forget to research about putin’s Wagner group.
Thanks for the civil conversation, this gives me hope.
Nice that some people have an open mind and are willing to be sceptical, look up sources and learn without blindly accepting what their side tells them.
Here’s some background:
The Ukraine fascist problem goes back all the way to WW2.
Even before it was finished US/UK started to save nazis to use them later against the Soviets.
After it was clear they would win the war after the battle of Stalingrad 1943.
This has been largely swept under the carpet.
Most of them in the west got rehabilitated and even kept in important positions. Not in the least in NATO.
And are we the good guys when we had no trouble accepting fully fascist regimes in NATO?
Spain, Portugal, Greece and more.
Everyone more or less knows about Project Paperclip to use nazi scientist.
Which is despicable but in some way understandable.
But it goes much further than that.
Here is a good read on the ratlines that were established.
And why would they save thousands of the worst Ukrainian SS Galicia troops and evacuate them to England and later Canada?
The results and the ideology of their offspring is still strong.
Also check out the rest of that sub, it will surely debunk the ‘no nazis in Ukraine’ mantra.
Declassified document showing CIA supporting post war fascists in Ukraine.
And those efforts kept going leading to the coup.
Always ready to answer questions.
Have a nice day.
The truth isn’t in the middle.
The truth is in science.