It always impresses me how Christianity = evangelicalism in the mind of most Lemmynauts. Outside evangelicalism (and even partly within evangelicalism), going to hell or heaven as nothing to do with being theologically correct or not. I mean, even the Catholic church, which is both by far the biggest one and absolutely not one of the most open ones states with an absolute clarity that non-Christians can go to heaven too.
Sure they do! That’s because they’ve become more moderate over the centuries in their long decline since The Great Mortality. This allows them to continue their parasitic ways in a secular society.
However, they spent many more centuries claiming the exact opposite, because the Bible says that most will burn in Hell. Repeatedly. Throughout.
The “absolute clarity” is in direct opposition to what they falsely claim is The Word of God. It’s absolutely clear that they are a cancer on the Earth.
Wrong. But I had this discussion with evangelicals 1000 hundred times it’s not interesting anymore. I’ll begin by citing theologians like Aquinas (13th century), you’ll answer saying “meh don’t care it’s not in the Bible” or, if you studied theology (but you probably didn’t), citing the one big exception, Augustine (which still wrote that God’s mysterious grace could be greater than what he himself thought). But with that I will have proved that no, it’s not a recent evolution of Christian theology, but something the churches hold still the beginning, with exceptions.
Then I’ll cite Romans 2:12-16, Luke 12:47-48, Matthew 25:31-46 or Acts 10:34-35, and you’ll do mental gymnastics that will grant you a place in the coming Olympics to reconcile this with the idea that only Christians are saved, using texts like John 3:18. And I’ll say, yes, the Bible contradicts itself on this subject like on most others, but my position is better established and coherent with the global message of the Bible, the church history, and the reason, while yours is not. And you’ll be shocked : “what? You don’t believe in biblical inerrancy? You’re not a Christian!” and I’ll answer “okay, bro”, like I do with disrespectful people on the net.
And we will both have lost a lot of time, and you will have push more people to hate Christ while you will feel oh so righteous.
You’re wrong, according to the Bible itself, repeatedly throughout. Anyone who’s read it knows that you’re wrong.
I have over 12 years of Bible studies daily, and don’t care if you took a theology college course.
I’ll cite Matthew 25:46, too. It says “eternal punishment” for a reason (and also John 3:18 of course)… and “the righteous” is clearly defined… also, Isaiah 66:24, Matthew 13:50, Mark 9:42, Luke 13:3 and 16:23, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Revelation 21:8, and on and on and on and on, there are many more.
Also, recall the words of Jesus Himself, which disagree with you. The gate is narrow, and few will find it.
Re Aquinas… he’s not relevant to this discussion, I’m not talking medieval philosophers, but the Bible.
Thank you for making up claims about my possible responses, as this clearly shows you’re not really interested in actual discussion, and would instead prefer to babble your lazy imagining as if they were relevant. All of your assumptions about me are wrong, your strawman arguments are wrong, and you are wrong.
If you consider this a waste of time, be silent. I quite enjoy it.
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. ~Proverbs 26:11
Evangelicalism is a religion of hate, evidence #8376383.
I pray that you’ll find Jesus one day. Then you’ll understand that he hates no one. In the meantime… bye, you’re blocked. I can’t do anything more for you.
I’m old enough to remember when kids started taking their new filp phone to public school and secretly recording their teachers berating their muslim or atheist students. The recordings stopped when teachers realized any student could be recording any conversation.
I’m also coded enough that bigots test the waters with me to see what I’ll agree with. I don’t exactly trust quiet christians. They’re very polite when they assume you’re also religious and things can go quickly downhill if they find out you’re not.
Catholics do not believe that non-Christians go to heaven. Best case scenario, righteous unbelievers go to purgatory. Same with unbaptised babies.
Also, I grew up going to baptist and pentecostal churches. They 1000% do not think my atheist ass is getting into heaven no matter how righteous I am, even though I got baptized for that matter. Unless I repent at the 11th hour and “accept Jesus into my heart as my savior,” anyway. There are certainly plenty denominations that are not all about preaching “hellfire for the unbeliever”, but even plenty of those still believe that is true even if they’re not boasting about it. There are some that allow for people to be saved through ignorance of Jesus (which makes missionary work kind of fucked up when you think about it that way). But even that is not the norm.
Jesus’ sacrifice saving humanity from eternal damnation is a key tenet of nearly all denominations. And most of them also say that you need to actually accept it and turn your life over to him to qualify for the get out of Hell free card.
Source: 37 years of life in the Bible belt as both an active churchgoer and apostate.
Purgatory is a step that leads to heaven, not a final destination. It’s a step that a lot of Catholics will have to take too, according to the catholic church so it’s not something that separates believers and non-believers.
Baptism and Pentecostalism are categories of evangelicalism. So yeah, they believe that. But they’re a minority within Christianity.
Jesus’ sacrifice saving humanity from eternal damnation is a key tenet of nearly all denominations.
Yes.
And most of them also say that you need to actually accept it and turn your life over to him to qualify for the get out of Hell free card.
I was grown myself as a Catholic.
And no, what you’re saying is false.
It might be sort of the “official stance”, even though contradicted from one document to another (in the catechism it says that not believing is a cardinal sin, for example, which means that just by consistently refusing to believe, you go to hell, for example), but even if so, most of practitioners just believe that atheist or agnostig = dangerous, criminal, ill and will and SHOULD go to hell, and even worse if you critisize religion.
It will depend on your parish. Catholicism is not a monolith. But the Catechism is clear :
[2125] Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion. The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. “Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion.”
Atheism is taught to be very serious, but the circumstances have to be taken into account. People reject the Church because the believers fail in their mission, either because they wrongly teach or because of their actions which contradict the teaching. In this case, the imputability of the sin of atheism is diminished, so it’s not anymore a cardinal sin. God only can make the difference.
I’m no Catholic myself, but their teaching is clear. That members of the Church believe differently, especially in America where Evangelicalism seems to have win the religious cultural war is not surprising, but the teaching stays.
That is not true. Lots of Christian denominations believe that as well. Most of them in fact. You are just Americentric in your belief that Evangelicalism is automatically meant, when that is not really a large denomination outside of the US.
I’m not American. I know no denomination outside evangelicalism which teach that. And in France, even evangelicals does not teach that for a large part. Catholicism does not. Mainline Protestantism does not. I don’t know well Eastern Orthodoxy, but as far as I know, they do not either.
False, not only in evangelicalism. The words of Jesus Christ disagree with you. Do you need me to quote the “Narrow Gate” to you? You should be very familiar with it if you’ve read the Bible.
Yeah, that’s what cults do. I’m very sorry, and happy for you you found a way out. It’s better to be an atheist than jailed in a cult, and I know God will understand.
It always impresses me how Christianity = evangelicalism in the mind of most Lemmynauts. Outside evangelicalism (and even partly within evangelicalism), going to hell or heaven as nothing to do with being theologically correct or not. I mean, even the Catholic church, which is both by far the biggest one and absolutely not one of the most open ones states with an absolute clarity that non-Christians can go to heaven too.
Sure they do! That’s because they’ve become more moderate over the centuries in their long decline since The Great Mortality. This allows them to continue their parasitic ways in a secular society.
However, they spent many more centuries claiming the exact opposite, because the Bible says that most will burn in Hell. Repeatedly. Throughout.
The “absolute clarity” is in direct opposition to what they falsely claim is The Word of God. It’s absolutely clear that they are a cancer on the Earth.
Wrong. But I had this discussion with evangelicals 1000 hundred times it’s not interesting anymore. I’ll begin by citing theologians like Aquinas (13th century), you’ll answer saying “meh don’t care it’s not in the Bible” or, if you studied theology (but you probably didn’t), citing the one big exception, Augustine (which still wrote that God’s mysterious grace could be greater than what he himself thought). But with that I will have proved that no, it’s not a recent evolution of Christian theology, but something the churches hold still the beginning, with exceptions.
Then I’ll cite Romans 2:12-16, Luke 12:47-48, Matthew 25:31-46 or Acts 10:34-35, and you’ll do mental gymnastics that will grant you a place in the coming Olympics to reconcile this with the idea that only Christians are saved, using texts like John 3:18. And I’ll say, yes, the Bible contradicts itself on this subject like on most others, but my position is better established and coherent with the global message of the Bible, the church history, and the reason, while yours is not. And you’ll be shocked : “what? You don’t believe in biblical inerrancy? You’re not a Christian!” and I’ll answer “okay, bro”, like I do with disrespectful people on the net.
And we will both have lost a lot of time, and you will have push more people to hate Christ while you will feel oh so righteous.
You’re wrong, according to the Bible itself, repeatedly throughout. Anyone who’s read it knows that you’re wrong.
I have over 12 years of Bible studies daily, and don’t care if you took a theology college course.
I’ll cite Matthew 25:46, too. It says “eternal punishment” for a reason (and also John 3:18 of course)… and “the righteous” is clearly defined… also, Isaiah 66:24, Matthew 13:50, Mark 9:42, Luke 13:3 and 16:23, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Revelation 21:8, and on and on and on and on, there are many more.
Also, recall the words of Jesus Himself, which disagree with you. The gate is narrow, and few will find it.
Re Aquinas… he’s not relevant to this discussion, I’m not talking medieval philosophers, but the Bible.
Thank you for making up claims about my possible responses, as this clearly shows you’re not really interested in actual discussion, and would instead prefer to babble your lazy imagining as if they were relevant. All of your assumptions about me are wrong, your strawman arguments are wrong, and you are wrong.
If you consider this a waste of time, be silent. I quite enjoy it.
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. ~Proverbs 26:11
Okay, bro.
Original sin, brah, take a course on that.
… and Jesus hates liars
Evangelicalism is a religion of hate, evidence #8376383.
I pray that you’ll find Jesus one day. Then you’ll understand that he hates no one. In the meantime… bye, you’re blocked. I can’t do anything more for you.
I’m old enough to remember when kids started taking their new filp phone to public school and secretly recording their teachers berating their muslim or atheist students. The recordings stopped when teachers realized any student could be recording any conversation.
I’m also coded enough that bigots test the waters with me to see what I’ll agree with. I don’t exactly trust quiet christians. They’re very polite when they assume you’re also religious and things can go quickly downhill if they find out you’re not.
Catholics do not believe that non-Christians go to heaven. Best case scenario, righteous unbelievers go to purgatory. Same with unbaptised babies.
Also, I grew up going to baptist and pentecostal churches. They 1000% do not think my atheist ass is getting into heaven no matter how righteous I am, even though I got baptized for that matter. Unless I repent at the 11th hour and “accept Jesus into my heart as my savior,” anyway. There are certainly plenty denominations that are not all about preaching “hellfire for the unbeliever”, but even plenty of those still believe that is true even if they’re not boasting about it. There are some that allow for people to be saved through ignorance of Jesus (which makes missionary work kind of fucked up when you think about it that way). But even that is not the norm.
Jesus’ sacrifice saving humanity from eternal damnation is a key tenet of nearly all denominations. And most of them also say that you need to actually accept it and turn your life over to him to qualify for the get out of Hell free card.
Source: 37 years of life in the Bible belt as both an active churchgoer and apostate.
Purgatory is a step that leads to heaven, not a final destination. It’s a step that a lot of Catholics will have to take too, according to the catholic church so it’s not something that separates believers and non-believers.
Baptism and Pentecostalism are categories of evangelicalism. So yeah, they believe that. But they’re a minority within Christianity.
Yes.
No. Only in evangelicalism.
I was grown myself as a Catholic. And no, what you’re saying is false.
It might be sort of the “official stance”, even though contradicted from one document to another (in the catechism it says that not believing is a cardinal sin, for example, which means that just by consistently refusing to believe, you go to hell, for example), but even if so, most of practitioners just believe that atheist or agnostig = dangerous, criminal, ill and will and SHOULD go to hell, and even worse if you critisize religion.
It will depend on your parish. Catholicism is not a monolith. But the Catechism is clear :
Atheism is taught to be very serious, but the circumstances have to be taken into account. People reject the Church because the believers fail in their mission, either because they wrongly teach or because of their actions which contradict the teaching. In this case, the imputability of the sin of atheism is diminished, so it’s not anymore a cardinal sin. God only can make the difference.
I’m no Catholic myself, but their teaching is clear. That members of the Church believe differently, especially in America where Evangelicalism seems to have win the religious cultural war is not surprising, but the teaching stays.
That is not true. Lots of Christian denominations believe that as well. Most of them in fact. You are just Americentric in your belief that Evangelicalism is automatically meant, when that is not really a large denomination outside of the US.
I’m not American. I know no denomination outside evangelicalism which teach that. And in France, even evangelicals does not teach that for a large part. Catholicism does not. Mainline Protestantism does not. I don’t know well Eastern Orthodoxy, but as far as I know, they do not either.
False, not only in evangelicalism. The words of Jesus Christ disagree with you. Do you need me to quote the “Narrow Gate” to you? You should be very familiar with it if you’ve read the Bible.
Well, consider me brainwashed by evangelicals then. Non-evangelicals really need to step up their PR game.
Yeah, that’s what cults do. I’m very sorry, and happy for you you found a way out. It’s better to be an atheist than jailed in a cult, and I know God will understand.