but honestly I’m not sure if you could find one family in USSR that would claim stores were well supplied in the 80s.
“Well-supplied” compared to what? Would you say that stores in most of the capitalist world were well-supplied?
Also I come from one of the satellite state. Food was taken out from the country, while there were protests over look of food in the stores. Kinda hard to claim it did not happen.
Movement of food between the republics doesn’t seem to be hard to believe, but also does not seem to be malicious.
I’m just addressing oversimplified vision of what money meant in state capitalism.
It’s rather silly to call planned economy “state capitalism”. For most of its existence, there wasn’t even the capitalist class - i.e. a class of people that owned the means of production as private property and used other people’s labour to extract profit from said means of production.
Compared to this broad choice of vinegar on the shelves.
Would you say that stores in most of the capitalist world were well-supplied?
Quality wise? Fuck no, obviously. But there is at least food one could steal if not buy. There’s enough so that theres abundant waste to run free soup kitchens and the likes. As opposed to there being not enough, while food is exported from your country. Yes capitalist economy is terrible, but for some there is a framework of comparison. One you chose to ignore/deny.
Generally my point is exactly that living experience of a soviet satellite state was not much different from that of a capitalist colony. There’s no food? To bad. Workers rebel? You drive a tank over them.
This does not negate atrocities of capitalism, or imperialist experiments and induced famine. It’s just that this was mirrored under another banner, one you consider incapable of harming it’s subjects for some reason.
Compared to this broad choice of vinegar on the shelves.
So, you can’t actually say what you are comparing the USSR to? (It is overwhelmingly likely that you are comparing the USSR to colonial metropoles, and ignore most of the world.)
Quality wise? Fuck no, obviously. But there is at least food one could steal if not buy.
And yet, people in the USSR weren’t struggling with food as much as most of the capitalist world. Hell, there is a famine in Madagascar.)
Yes capitalist economy is terrible, but for some there is a framework of comparison. One you chose to ignore/deny.
What is that “other framework”? Pillaging Africa, Asia, and elsewhere outside of Europe?
Generally my point is exactly that living experience of a soviet satellite state was not much different from that of a capitalist colony. There’s no food? To bad. Workers rebel?
Okay. What famines are you referring to that happened during your adulthood in the USSR?
You drive a tank over them.
Like when?
It’s just that this was mirrored under another banner
Okay, what people did the USSR engaged in colonialism against, and which ones did it subject to genocide?
Also, I am going to point out again that no, neither what came before, nor what came after was/has been better.
So, you can’t actually say what you are comparing the USSR to? (It is overwhelmingly likely that you are comparing the USSR to colonial metropoles, and ignore most of the world.
I’m comparing it to potential availability of food in the breadbasket of Europe in which currently half of the farmland is not used to stop “overproduction”. When you manage to make food unavailable in the legal system in such a place it is an achievement.
Hell, there is a famine in Madagascar.
Pretty sure there were some in USSR like you know, 1/3 of Ukraine starving to death? Or was it governments/systems fault only if its a capitalist state?
What is that “other framework”? Pillaging Africa, Asia, and elsewhere outside of Europe?
Well “my” state never had any colonies, it was busy enslaving and exploiting local population of Eastern Europe, so that’s one possible reference. Another would be that I’ve actually lived through some, and I’m surrounded by millions of other people who lived though what you seem to support uncritically. Just as I’ve lived through capitalist colonisation of my state, visited USSR, Russia and China.
That’s the point where you claim that the charts you have handy are more important.
What famines are you referring to that happened during your adulthood in the USSR?
My dear friend, the very problem is that there was no famine, at least in my (non USSR) state. The system was just so innefective.
Like when?
Like when that picture was taken, Wujek mine strike, 16 dec 1981. But there was 2 years of tanks on the streets then, while a mass trade union was dismantled, leaders imprisoned or killed of.
USSR engaged in colonialism against, and which ones did it subject to genocide?
Well using state names to make it easier; Poland and Ukraine are an easy pick, and Ukraine rather firmly stands in the second category. A number of central Asian states and populations were also forcibly moved and/or starved of.
It’s funny how you admitted that you were not comparing the situation with any sort of actual cases, but a hypothetical case of what the Ukrainian SSR could have done. All while falling to mention that Ukraine’s agricultural output decreased between 1980 and 1990.
Also, why did you opt to lie about 1/3rd of the Ukrainian population dying in the 1930s, and also presenting that case as a famine that happened during your adulthood?
It’s pretty clear that you can’t actually explain why you think that the USSR was somehow worse in this regard than most of the capitalist world (where people die by starvation en mass even today).
Not in Moscow. Not in any administrative centers.
“Well-supplied” compared to what? Would you say that stores in most of the capitalist world were well-supplied?
Movement of food between the republics doesn’t seem to be hard to believe, but also does not seem to be malicious.
It’s rather silly to call planned economy “state capitalism”. For most of its existence, there wasn’t even the capitalist class - i.e. a class of people that owned the means of production as private property and used other people’s labour to extract profit from said means of production.
Compared to this broad choice of vinegar on the shelves.
Quality wise? Fuck no, obviously. But there is at least food one could steal if not buy. There’s enough so that theres abundant waste to run free soup kitchens and the likes. As opposed to there being not enough, while food is exported from your country. Yes capitalist economy is terrible, but for some there is a framework of comparison. One you chose to ignore/deny.
Generally my point is exactly that living experience of a soviet satellite state was not much different from that of a capitalist colony. There’s no food? To bad. Workers rebel? You drive a tank over them.
This does not negate atrocities of capitalism, or imperialist experiments and induced famine. It’s just that this was mirrored under another banner, one you consider incapable of harming it’s subjects for some reason.
So, you can’t actually say what you are comparing the USSR to? (It is overwhelmingly likely that you are comparing the USSR to colonial metropoles, and ignore most of the world.)
And yet, people in the USSR weren’t struggling with food as much as most of the capitalist world. Hell, there is a famine in Madagascar.)
What is that “other framework”? Pillaging Africa, Asia, and elsewhere outside of Europe?
Okay. What famines are you referring to that happened during your adulthood in the USSR?
Like when?
Okay, what people did the USSR engaged in colonialism against, and which ones did it subject to genocide?
Also, I am going to point out again that no, neither what came before, nor what came after was/has been better.
I’m comparing it to potential availability of food in the breadbasket of Europe in which currently half of the farmland is not used to stop “overproduction”. When you manage to make food unavailable in the legal system in such a place it is an achievement.
Pretty sure there were some in USSR like you know, 1/3 of Ukraine starving to death? Or was it governments/systems fault only if its a capitalist state?
Well “my” state never had any colonies, it was busy enslaving and exploiting local population of Eastern Europe, so that’s one possible reference. Another would be that I’ve actually lived through some, and I’m surrounded by millions of other people who lived though what you seem to support uncritically. Just as I’ve lived through capitalist colonisation of my state, visited USSR, Russia and China.
That’s the point where you claim that the charts you have handy are more important.
My dear friend, the very problem is that there was no famine, at least in my (non USSR) state. The system was just so innefective.
Like when that picture was taken, Wujek mine strike, 16 dec 1981. But there was 2 years of tanks on the streets then, while a mass trade union was dismantled, leaders imprisoned or killed of.
Well using state names to make it easier; Poland and Ukraine are an easy pick, and Ukraine rather firmly stands in the second category. A number of central Asian states and populations were also forcibly moved and/or starved of.
It’s funny how you admitted that you were not comparing the situation with any sort of actual cases, but a hypothetical case of what the Ukrainian SSR could have done. All while falling to mention that Ukraine’s agricultural output decreased between 1980 and 1990.
Also, why did you opt to lie about 1/3rd of the Ukrainian population dying in the 1930s, and also presenting that case as a famine that happened during your adulthood?
It’s pretty clear that you can’t actually explain why you think that the USSR was somehow worse in this regard than most of the capitalist world (where people die by starvation en mass even today).