History written by the winners is ok according to you as long as you agree with it. That is really funny.

Being critical of sources is paramount in historical research 🤷

More fan-fiction and post-hoc justifications. You seriously need to read some historically accurate accounts of what happened at the time.

Taking over state power by raising a militia is not organizing. Even Castro famously agreed with that.

Sorry but more circular logic is not gonna cut it. If a group of people no matter their original class decide that they are better suited to rule than others and ursurp power then they declare themselves monarchs and certainly do not represent the working class.

More historical inaccuracies. The first people the Bolshevik purged were people that naively thought they were on the same side.

And no, the original Soviets wanted to create self-administered communities and work-places. Taking over centralized state power makes no sense with that goal in mind.

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“Reciepts” to fan-fiction are worthless 🤷

I am aware that I am not going to win this argument here on lemmy.ml which has long purged or actively driven away anyone that isn’t deep into the fan-fiction you seem to agree with.

Again historical inacurracies. Yes obviously the Soviets opposed the provisional government. But they did not try to take it over as that would have invalidated the very idea they stood for.

What happened after the November revolution is no indication of how the members of the Soviets really felt as the Bolshevik started purging people that disagred with them quite heavily.

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Again more historical inaccuracies. For example the “Soviets” back then were not the Bolshevik, even if they later falsely claimed to represent them and usurped the term.

You really need lay off on the fan-fiction and self-serving election reports literally written by Lenin himself.

You are not going to convince me with more circular logic. A system’s purpose is what the system does. Monopolizing state power is not putting the workers in power, it is the exact opposite.

And no I am not going to do the research for you. When someone is as ignorant of historical facts as you then I am not going to do the work for you. You are not my boss, even if you claim to represent me as a member of the vanguard party 😏

The Victor Yanukovyth government did not proposed annexation by Russia, and thus these voting results are no argument that people in these regions were in favour of such.

And there are also many Nazis constantly seen in Russian forces, or Americal forces, or German forces… your argument is completly pointless in that regard. And by the time the Russians started their full force attempt at imperial annexation the right-wing parties were not in Government and had only a very small representation in the Ukrainian parliarment.

China is the example of state-capitalism par exellence. So your argument is that 90% of the Chinese supposedly are in favour of capitalism? 🤡

Again more historical inaccuracies. The provisional government was a hodgepot of different ideas and it was very clear from the start that the rural socialist party would win the proposed election (as they did). These and somewhat allied anarchist thinkers proposed ideas that went well beyond the state-capitalism that the Bolshevik endorsed, so ursurping the provisional government and taking power in the november revolution by force was clearly counter-revolutionary. Coalitions that happened after that are sham when everyone just saw what happens when you stand in the way of how the Bolshevik take power.

I said the arguments of marxist-leninists are mostly post-hoc, and you responded with one example of an earlier text that Lenin wrote. Kinda funny that you chose to ignore that there are more marxist-leninist writers and the very term was coined by Stalin long after the Bolshevik ursurped power. I am sure you know this, so you are clearly not arguing in good faith.

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I did provide plenty of arguments, but you seem to be so deep into the fan-fiction that you fail to understand them. And Materialism as proposed by Marx has little resemblence to how actual societies outside of some extreme resource starved communities work, and there is literally a hundred years plus of literature that shows so. That you still stick to a long disproven theory and see “no flaw” in it should give you plenty of thought about how up to date your other ideas are.

And yes, Lenin’s earlier works had very interested readers in the German state security aparatus at the time.

More circular logic. Someone that administers the state is by definition no longer working class.

And if you abolish the typical liberal capitalist ways of wealth accumulation, then the data and ways of measuring such stops making sense, but this doesn’t change the fact that the people at the top of these states comandeered vast wealth and used that for their personal benefit and pet projects. And this is also a typical characteristic of state-capitalism where the people in charge are typically living a quite low profile life outside their public persona a few cultivate for vain reasons.

And yes there was some political disagreement at the time in Germany, which also had gone though significant political upheaval recently, but to allow someone to go that you know is in favour of establishing a capitalist state when you dislike the alternative is sure sowing chaos or you could also say they wished for a counter-revolution to take place, which they got through the hands of Lenin.

Marxist theory in so far as it was actually written by Marx and marxists (as opposed to marxist-leninists, a deviant offshot that is mainly just post-hoc justifications for people that ursuped state power for personal gain), is largely in agreement with anarchist theory and most of what Marx wrote in his younger days was summaries and borderline plagiats of earlier anarchist and socialist thinkers. It has some flaws, especially in regards to materialism though, and Marx himself became a reactionary after having a fallout with people that showed him the flaws in his arguments.

From the provisional government that was formed after the February revolution that took power from the Tzar and started organizing elections, which the Bolshevik lost and then decided to take power by force.