It looks like the ex-DDG employee got the details wrong, and read the slides backwards.
See the cynic in me is wondering whether it was actually a mistake like they said, or if it’s a cover up.
“Hey, Wired, weird thing with our search algorithm. It seems to always put you on page 2 since your article dropped. I wonder why that is?” – Larry Page, probably.
My interpretation, based on a comment on orange Reddit, is that they read this slide and interpreted it the wrong way around.
The claim was that Google was taking a query for “kids clothing” and turning it into “$brandName kids clothing” to get more ad revenue from $brandName, but the slide shows the exact opposite: “$brandName kids clothing” is turned into “kids clothing”. I can’t find much about ads, I’m not sure if the ads were ever affected by this keyword transformation, but if they are then the ads you see will be more generic (and worth less, and less profitable).
The claim was that Google was taking a query for “kids clothing” and turning it into " kids clothing" to get more ad revenue from , but the slide shows the exact opposite: " kids clothing" is turned into “kids clothing”.
Am I having a stroke?
Lemmy removed part of my content, apparently putting stuff between < and > breaks it? I’ll edit my comment.
weird
> is for block quotes
I don’t about that other one though
I assume it has to do with code filtering out attempts to inject HTML / scripts into comments. Lemmy had a bunch of bugs that allowed hackers to inject Javascript so they turned on quite an aggressive filter.
They fucked it up completely in a way that raises questions of competence.
HTML has ways to display angle brackets specifically intended to never be interpreted as tags. “Entity names” will never be code. There’s not even a sensible way to do it deliberately, like %20 nonsense.
hm, thanks for the information
Could have done it with proper encoding, don’t need to remove it lol o.O
Allowing tainted data in to the dataset means every single client has to do every single spot of content rendering correctly or else be vulnerable to easy hacking. Keeping it out of the dataset means not all clients have to be perfect for Lemmy to be a secure place.
we’re having a stroke together
Am all in on this stroke as well.
The slide shows neither. It shows that they use synonyms to get more results. They take a search for “kids clothing” and add results for “children’s clothing” and “kidswear”
I hope they also add results for “kids swear”.
My interpretation was this + in terms of the actual “sponsored” results work by matching “kids clothing” with advertisers who match for that term, and Google “changing” it into “$brand_name kids clothing” which seems entirely obvious when spelling it out.
I haven’t used Google as my primary search engine for many years but occasionally I do run a search on it. While the quality of results is extremely low, I never noticed anything obvious like a generic search term only returning results for a specific brand + that search term like the original article implied.
It seemed like a giant misunderstanding of how it all works from the start but made for a great headline.
Nah, they’re definitely doing this. I searched for my itch fame page on Google with my username, and it didn’t come up in the search. But sure enough things I could buy came up in the search.
Then I went to duckduckgo and searched the exact same thing and my page was first I. The results, it even had all of my games as search result hits as well.
Google is most definitely showing you search results other than what you searched for.
I’m so reluctant to agree with you… I imagine Google threatened legal action in this case
*itch game page
Does lemmy.world not let you edit your comments?
Test
Edit: yes, you can
Must be a connect thing. I can’t seem to edit my comments from this App.
Works fine for me
Hmm, maybe I need to update
Sometimes it doesn’t for some reason.
Yes, speaking from experience building ads on Google.
You’re tracked with an anonymized id. If they’re able to remotely tell any of your past activity or similar searches by others searching for the same term, then they will alter results.
This is especially true for any paid ads that appear since companies can bid to appear higher on competitor terms or names.
I can even say “if someone downloaded x-z specific apps on their phones, then consider them interested in my ad”.
Or, another explanation is that more people are interested in things they can buy than in you (and I understand how hard it might be to believe in that), and Google algorithms “know” that
Pretty sure when I search my username plus a specific website I should get back results from that website…
Tbh it sounds like you didn’t search for the website, but just put the term itch.io into the search box. Special characters like a dot get completely ignored in the search, so you searched for “itch io username” which will give massively different results depending on the username.
If you search for the site properly by using site:itch.io then Google will only show you results from that site and nothing else.
Lots of complaints about the Google results often come down to user errors.
K, then why did a different search engine give me correct results while Google gave me advertisements? Nevermind that a different person in this thread is telling you they uses to work advertising for Google, and they so infact change the search results.
Google has been giving me far far shittier results over the last 5-10 years. It’s crazy to think, but in my opinion it was WAY more accurate years ago than it is today at giving me what I blatantly searched for.
It’s not just Google. The Internet has been getting worse over the last years. People don’t make sites any more. Blogs have moved to closed and centralized social media platforms. Forums are rarely used, most communities moved to platforms like reddit and Discord.
Most of these platforms make finding content very difficult. You won’t find articles posted on Facebook, Twitter threads and Discord discussions in search engines. You have to create an account on their platform, then use their shitty search (or be subscribed to the right people) to see it.
Kagi sucks for this reason too. I can’t believe people recommend that $200/yr paid search engine garbage.
Put another way, spam sites have become more effective at defeating anti-webspam measures.
At the very least, it’s no better than the alternatives any more. Whenever I put Duck Duck Go up against Google, I get very similar results, other than all the extra ads on Google.
Same experience.
I’ll click on a page, scroll for a bit, get frustrated, Ctrl-F for the active part of my search string, and not find it.
I left Google because of that but it followed me to Duck Duck Go.DDG is just a front-end for Bing. There are very few search engines that actually do their own indexing.
Interesting. I looked it up and found this, so it looks like it’s some hybrid of many sources:
Most of our search result pages feature one or more Instant Answers. To deliver Instant Answers on specific topics, DuckDuckGo leverages many sources, including specialized sources like Sportradar and crowd-sourced sites like Wikipedia. We also maintain our own crawler (DuckDuckBot) and many indexes to support our results. Of course, we have more traditional links and images in our search results too, which we largely source from Bing. Our focus is synthesizing all these sources to create a superior search experience.Well I noticed a difference between duckduckgo and Ecosia, both taking results from Bing. Not sure if it’s the language setting, or something else.
While there’s no doubt that something is going on to make Google searches garbage, news outlets don’t publish retractions lightly. I’m inclined to believe that they are convinced that the story was substantially inaccurate.
Thank you, CaptObvious.
…you know, your username makes it difficult to sound sincere when addressing you.
LOL! I hadn’t really considered that. Maybe I should consider changing it. :)
Nah, it makes it that much harder to try and insult you. Embrace it. Always take it as sincere even when it clearly isn’t, just to drive others mad. :p
I do sometimes enjoy being an agent of chaos. :D
Why do you think so?
They could have been threatened by Google or Google might have shown them the correct documents, but how would we be able to tell?
Short of visiting their newsroom and asking to see the documents in question, which no self-respecting journalist would share, we’ll have to trust them.
However, having directed a newsroom in a previous life, I can tell you that a retraction is the last thing any editor wants to do. A minor error would be chalked up to working under a deadline and corrected in the next follow-up. A major error would get a stand-alone correction. The error has to be egregious to get a retraction.
Libel might be a threat, but it’s devilishly difficult to prove that a news outlet has libeled a corporation. So long as the story were factually accurate, there’s nothing Google could plausibly threaten that would prompt a retraction.
I guess Google threatened to sue Wired? It’s pretty obvious that Google is showing profitable products and click farms instead of relevant information you’re actually looking for.
My mom almost got scammed while buying tickets online because google placed an ad site before the real site in search results. Thankfully she always asks me or my sister before buying stuff online.
Same thing happened to me. That was The Day I Dumped Google.
Google has been shit for a while now, innit?
Unless you really like spam from quora and pinterest.
Im amazed people still use google for a search engine.
deleted by creator
I mean, edge is the default browser and it’s not like you’d be crazy to say “l’m surprised people use edge as their internet browser”
But yeah, it’s not surprising people use Google, it is surprising people don’t know alternatives are not horrible anymore and Google generally is.
IDK, I do think it’s crazy to say you’re surprised people use Edge. As you said, it’s the default on Windows, so a very large number of Windows users will be using it because they haven’t bothered to change the default.
I guess I could see it as hyperbole, but not as an actual, serious belief.
I know, but I use vpn when searching and puzzles every search made me leave years ago. Im aware most use google.
As opposed to what? I’ve tried to switch to DDG so many times, but its lack of explicit phrase searching makes it practically useless. I just end up using g! all the time until I finally just give up and switch back.
Yeah… if I search for Terraform stuff on the Big G, I get shit-tons of LLM-generated crapsites. If I search for the TF stuff I’m working on at DDG, I don’t get anything.
Default search engine on Chrome, iOS and Android.
Most people don’t understand how bad Google has become. It’s like not noticing how tall you’ve grown until your grandmother points it out.
I mean, it doesn’t really matter how correct the general sentiment is if the article still gets a key detail or two wrong. The incorrect details still need a retraction, and if they’re the main reasoning for the general conclusion… well, it’s much more attractive to have an article with actual reasons than, “it feels like Google search sucks.”.
I’m not sure what your comment has to do with mine because I wasn’t discussing anything in the article, simply replying to someone else’s comment.
To be clear I understand that the article was incorrect, and I had my suspicions when I first saw it too (which I posted in another comment).
My comment is in reference to Google Search’s general degradation of user experience and quality of search results over the many years. Sponsored results that are hard for the average people to notice are sponsored, and they take up half the screen. SEO spam, quora spam, specific searches returning general results, etc. There is still a wealth of organic and original content out there. I just never find it through search.
Now I believe it more than ever
Lemmybrains: You fools! As if I needed evidence to make up my mind.
They still fuck up “Did you mean…?” to ignore whatever you wrote. Somewhere in the last decade that went from “haha whoops you’re right” to “stop talking over me, robot.”
The internet is forever… https://archive.ph/kmhqs
Apart from that archive.today seemed down yesterday - I was worried they weren’t coming back!
Their CAPTCHA has been broken a lot lately, too.
I’m not sure I even knew they had a Captcha, I guess I don’t look like a bot.
Do people deliberately not use archive.org? That’s the one I always use but with everyone using these alternatives, I wonder if I should use them too.
Since the lawsuits started? It would seem so. Lots of folks are worried about getting caught up in them, I guess. Enough so that ICanHazPDF is becoming a thing again.
Also, I’m not sure if IA’s purpose is to get a around a pay wall. That might be considered violating copywrite.
Retraction is Wired’s way of confirming a story… awful outlet.
“Yeah, the fact our search engine has sucked for a decade has nothing to do with us changing your search. Trust me, bro” - Google’s CEO.
I think what’s more likely is that Google threatened the hell out of the employee.
Threatened with what exactly? It’s an article reporting about documents that have been made public through a lawsuit. All of this information is freely available on the web.
They haven’t been. Google’s lawyers moved to restrict trial documents from being made public, and the judge agreed to. Only a handful were briefly available prior to that ruling.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/26/technology/google-antitrust-trial-secrecy.html
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/sep/29/google-antitrust-trial-limited-public-access
I see, I missed that they managed to get the lawsuit back under wraps.
Still, I find it highly unlikely that the article was revoked under threat.
If I understand correctly the article is a lie. The author “misunderstood” what they were reading.
In that case Google wouldn’t “threaten the hell out of the employee”, they’d send a cease and desist to Wired, the company. Which, given that these documents are apparently considered confidential by the court, would make a lot more sense.
I don’t know if Google threatening the DDG employee would change the situation. Wired published it. If their writer came back and said “I was threatened by a megacorp for my excellent work. Please take it down and tell everyone I was wrong” wired, at very least, would not issue that statement.
The discount on the subscription seems super fitting… now with less integrity!
“oopsie I accidentally wrote the hit piece of the year about my competitor and it turned out to be a lie! Tee hee silly me what even is journalistic integrity?”
This article was a smoking gun. Google is scummy but this was shocking. And it was a fucking lie? I actually hope Google goes after wired. That’s not justice against Google that’s malpractice.
I’ll never understand corporate apologists that live to defend the billion dollar companies ruining the Internet. Google is an ad company, but you can’t believe they’d alter search queries to sell ads? How could you possibly trust Google after they’ve been caught illegally sniffing people’s Wi-Fi with their Google Maps vehicles, spying on kids in school with Chromebooks and destroying incriminating documents in a federal court case to hide their actions?
Just because they’ve done some things wrong doesn’t mean they have done everything that’s wrong. I would rather base my criticism on companies (or people or ideas) on true facts.
That means sometimes there’s an uncomfortable situation where an otherwise evil organization isn’t always evil in every situation, and that is ok.
Isn’t greed inherently evil? Google takes it to a new level as they aren’t only a greedy corporation, but a military contractor embedded into the military industrial complex. So, when the US gets involved in a conflict Google profits and they control the flow of information through their search and video platform monopolies. They remove content critical of US military intervention, not to protect national security, but their profits from the defense sector.
In order to make a claim like that you need two different evidences: one showing that they did remove content critical of the US and one showing that they removed it because they intended to use the removal to make more money
This is the first you’ve heard about Google/Youtube censoring people or altering search queries? It must have been a decade ago when they removed Kodi from autocomplete because “it was used by pirates.” Even when I disagree with the people they remove, which is most of the time, I am still uncomfortable with a for profit corporation like Alphabet Inc having that much power to decide what people can and cannot see in addition to manipulating search results.
Nearly every content creator I follow talks about not being about to talk about certain issues for fear of being canceled. That’s censorship, maybe not Chinese style putting you in jail, but it’s still corporate censorship. Google has plenty of defense contracts, as well as contracts with other government agencies. Their previous CEO now leads the Defense Advanced Research Agency (DARPA) and they work with the defense department on AI and robotics.
A company as untrustworthy and clandestine as Google will make it difficult to connect some dots, but corporation are legally structured to always act in accordance with shareholder interest and Google legally has the right to remove whatever content it wants as a private company. Of course they remove, alter or censor results and content in order to increase profits, their CEO is legally required to act in this way to fulfill the mandate of their position.
I’ve certainly seen and heard of Google modifying results or puting punishments on users because they broach topics that violate their terms of service.
I will absolutely agree that the rules of their ToS are heavily determined by the desires of advertisers and written laws.
But just because they may restrict the content based off of advertiser’s wishes or because they are legally required to do so doesn’t mean that Google is in bed with the government and willing to do anything to prop up the government’s power so they can keep making money from them.
That’s a really big and important jump you can’t just hand wave away just because a company as large as Google works with the government on some things. That’s just conspiracy theory and detracts from the very real, evidence based criticisms we can and should be focusing on.
Would Google lie to their advertisers? Not in a way that Legal would consider lies, that’s their bread and butter they’re fucking with. They’re already in hot water because some websites figured out ways to get ad revenue marked as “100% seen by a human” playing in popunders and hidden players, which is probably why Google wants to expand their remote attestation bullshit.
Google altering search queries is well known and documented, even for advertisers. The big claim was that Google was doing it to defraud their customers (not their users).
Google’s WiFi sniffing wasn’t illegal as far as I know, at least according to the American FCC. I’m not sure what the deal is with Chromebooks (I think they’re about as intrusive as their Microsoft competition?) but you’re right about their destroying evidence being terrible. I’m sure they’ll get fined to hell and back once this commission is done.
However, sensationalist lies will only work in Google’s favour, as it can use the slander of publications like these to demonstrate the heavy impact of the antitrust case which could in turn lower their actual fines.
